[Tigers unleashed] Long range fire: too accurate?

Amadeus

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I noticed that AFV mounted guns routinely score direct hits against vehicle-sized targets at ranges of 2000-3000m and above.

I wonder whether this is WAD or there's something wrong with this. I'm puzzled by this behaviour because tanks are engaging point targets with exceptional accuracy at ranges that should, realistically, be considered only for area fire.

Here are just a few examples. The selection includes only KV-1 as firing units but similar results are also common with others units (Panzer IV, HT mounted mortars etc.)

Firing Unit: 2nd USSR KV-1 Tank Pltn (pre/early war) KV-1 (1940) (Loc: Hex: 1061 (36, 25)) Elv:0m Spd:0 kph Face:W
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0
Wpn: 76mm 1938/39 tank gun L-11 (L/30.5) Ammo: 76.2mm F-32 + L-11 tank gun HE
Target: 1st GE HalfTrack HMG Section 1939-42 SdKfz 250 Le SPW/1 HMG (Loc: Hex: 821 (1, 20)) Elv:0m Spd:0 kph Face:SE
Range: 3572m. 48 % of max (DF).

Round: 1
Accy: 60,24%
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 54 Damage: 21 Supn: 772
Result: no damage

Round: 2
Accy: 59,63%
Misses Target (Impacts Loc:821)
2nd GE WW2 Motorcycle Pltn Group [5cm Mortar 36] (Loc: Hex: 822 (2, 20)) Elv:0m Spd:0 kph Face:E suffers a loss
No other effects

Round: 3
Accy: 61,47%
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 57 Damage: 24 Supn: 39
1st GE HalfTrack HMG Section 1939-42 SdKfz 250 Le SPW/1 HMG (Loc: Hex: 821 (1, 20)) Elv:0m Spd:0 kph Face:SE suffers a loss
Wreckage created.

Firing Unit: 2nd USSR KV-1 Tank Pltn (pre/early war) KV-1 (1940) (Loc: Hex: 1061 (36, 25)) Elv:0m Spd:0 kph Face:W
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0
Wpn: 76mm 1938/39 tank gun L-11 (L/30.5) Ammo: 76.2mm F-32 + L-11 tank gun HE
Target: 4th GE Panzer IV (short gun) Pltn 1941-42 PanzerKW IV E 7.5cm/24 KwK (Loc: Hex: 865 (4, 21)) Elv:0m Spd:0 kph Face:E
Range: 3215m. 44 % of max (DF).

Round: 1
Accy: 96,99%
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: - Damage: - Supn: 772

Round: 2
Accy: 99,99%
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 2,7 Damage: 5,1 Supn: 39
Result: Damaged

Round: 3
Accy: 96,99%
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 2,7 Damage: 5,1 Supn: 39
Result: no damage

Firing Unit: 2nd USSR KV-1 Tank Pltn (pre/early war) KV-1 (1940) (Loc: Hex: 936 (34, 22)) Elv:0m Spd:0 kph Face:W
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0
Wpn: 76mm 1938/39 tank gun L-11 (L/30.5) Ammo: 76.2mm F-32 + L-11 tank gun HE
Target: 1st GE Panzer Bn (Lt) 1941-42 PzrbefehlsW III H (command tank) (Loc: Hex: 902 (0, 22)) Elv:0m Spd:0 kph Face:E
Range: 3400m. 46 % of max (DF).

Round: 1
Accy: 62,93%
Misses Target (Impacts Loc:902)
No effects

Round: 2
Accy: 66,14%
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 3,3 Damage: 5,1 Supn: 39
Result: no damage

 

navman74

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If there is a clear LOS to the target, 2k meters is not outside of range...Pz IV f2 could still penetrate around 80mm of armor from a range of 1950meters or so, and soft targets would be killed easier.
The listed range of 3572m however does seem a bit long...it it still not really artillery range, but seems quite long range for a ww2 era tank, albeit maybe against soft targets it might be doable, without having to account for armor penetration at that range.
 

Amadeus

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My perplexity isn't about penetration capabilities, the problem is that almost every AFV mounted gun easily scores direct hits against vehicles at ranges of three kilometres or more with the first or the second shot!
Of course tank guns were capable of direct firing HE shells at ranges of 3000m or more but these extreme ranges were intended for area fire and not for sniping on vehicles or point-sized targets.

Here's the complete report of a 60 turns scenario run (Panzers vs KVs Ukraine), you'll see that the puzzling behavious I pointed out is more the norm than the exception.
 

Redwolf

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Looks b0rked.

I wonder whether the bases for this are in the unit database. They might not affect all shooters in that case.
 

Amadeus

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I presume it's a database related side-effect. Just checked the accuracy graphs for the 7.62mm L-11 tank gun against a PzKpfw IV E.
Here they are, for AP ammo and HE ammo:

View attachment 35005View attachment 35006

As already said, HE shells were used at long range but the accuracy against point targets should be comparable to that of the AP rounds.
 

Wodin

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Funny enough I've seen very low hit percentages at closeish range.

It's results like this that get me concerend aswell..

Base Kinetic Penetration 178989mm

Final Penetration 0mm

Excess -1410065408mm
 

Amadeus

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Funny enough I've seen very low hit percentages at closeish range.
Probably this is due to the fact that at closer range AP rounds are used and (see the above graphs) accuracy values for AP rounds are more consistent with historical reports.

It's results like this that get me concerend aswell..

Base Kinetic Penetration 178989mm

Final Penetration 0mm

Excess -1410065408mm
Did you manage to find whether this strange result is due to the database or the exe?
 

Wodin

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Not sure.

Once the game started giving off these figures it did everytime. Though before it went wild so to speak I wasn't getting results like this.

Oh some where even more extreme.

I presume it's the exe rather than database.

Though reading threads here the database needs looking at.
 

void

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Tiger E:
Front armor hull&turret of 100mm seems correct, even if it could be 110mm for turret mantlet.

The strange parameters are for T-34 (1942):
Accuracy at 1200m of 58% seems high.
The APCR ammo, probably BR-350P, starts with incredibly high penetration of 250mm@0m and 185mm@1000m. Much too much.
 

JMass

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I am going mad too, I don't understand if the Accuracy is sometimes broken or I don't understand how it works, in the example below the Sandbox Form says that Accuracy should be about 35% but it raised to 99%, in this way Germans needed just Pz IV with HEAT ammo to beat T-34, not Tigers or Panthers...

Firing Unit: 1st GE Panzer IV Pltn 1941-42 PanzerKW IV E 7.5cm/24
KwK (Loc: Hex: 2071 (21, 25)) Elv:0m Spd:0 kph Face:SE
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0
Wpn: 7.5cm KwK37 L/24 Ammo: 75mm/24 KwK 40 HEAT
Target: Task Force HQ T-34 (1940) (Loc: Hex: 2490 (30, 30)) Elv:0m
Spd:0 kph Face:NW
Range: 939m. 62 % of max (DF).

Round: 1
Accy: 99,99%
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 76 Damage: 57 Supn: 6,3
Task Force HQ T-34 (1940) (Loc: Hex: 2490 (30, 30)) Elv:0m Spd:0
kph Face:NW suffers a loss
Wreckage created.

Round: 2
Accy: 96,99%
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 76 Damage: 57 Supn: 6,3
Task Force HQ T-34 (1940) (Loc: Hex: 2490 (30, 30)) Elv:0m Spd:0
kph Face:NW suffers a loss
Wreckage created.

Round: 3
Accy: 99,99%
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 76 Damage: 57 Supn: 6,3
Task Force HQ T-34 (1940) (Loc: Hex: 2490 (30, 30)) Elv:0m Spd:0
kph Face:NW suffers a loss
Wreckage created.
Ceased firing, target destroyed.
 

Redwolf

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I am going mad too, I don't understand if the Accuracy is sometimes broken or I don't understand how it works, in the example below the Sandbox Form says that Accuracy should be about 35% but it raised to 99%, in this way Germans needed just Pz IV with HEAT ammo to beat T-34, not Tigers or Panthers...
There is certainly a code problem involved, too, around the complex of when to use HE and how it affects targets.
 

Wodin

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I suggest everyone use detail 6 and then send all reports to HPS Support. If we keep sending them I'm sure they will be looked at.

I send everything off.

So lets use detail level 6 and star sending those emails.

Everyone up for it?
 

Redwolf

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Do we get payed for the QA work or is this a free beta test?
 

Wodin

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Sadly we don't, but still if we want the game to work and have it's bugs quashed we have no choice.

At least rhammy sent scot a list of things we have trouble with and then posted his reply. Which was promising.
 

Redwolf

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I was being sarcastic.

Is there at least a formal bug tracking system with numbers for accepted bugs?
 

JMass

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TU patched with v. 04:

Firing Unit: 2nd USSR KV-1 Tank Pltn (pre/early war) KV-1 (1940) (Loc: Hex: 934 (32, 22)) Elv:0m Spd:0 kph Face:W
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0
Wpn: 76mm 1938/39 tank gun L-11 (L/30.5) Ammo: 76.2mm F-32 + L-11 tank gun HE
Target: 1st GE Panzer Bn (Lt) 1941-42 PzrbefehlsW III H (command tank) (Loc: Hex: 902 (0, 22)) Elv:0m Spd:0 kph Face:E
Range: 3200m. 43 % of max (DF).

Round: 1
Accy: 71,52%
Misses Target (Impacts Loc:902)
No effects

Round: 2
Accy: 68,72%
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 3,3 Damage: 5,1 Supn: 39
Impact Velocity: 59 mps
*Effective Armor Thickness: 43mm
HE Penetration: 18mm
Base Kinetic Penetration: 0mm
Base HEAT Penetration: 0mm
*Final Penetration: 26mm
*Excess Penetration: -19mm
* Values reflect 43 degree angle of impact.
Impact Surface: Turret Front
Spall: 2
Result: Damaged

:nuts:
 
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Wodin

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Maybe some of the spalling damaged something in the tank? sometimes it's hard to work out whats happened.

It's worse when you start getting numbers in the thousands!! Usually during a long scenario.
 

Amadeus

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Maybe some of the spalling damaged something in the tank? sometimes it's hard to work out whats happened.
Again, the problem is not the damage, it's accuracy. The problem is the fact thay they are routinely hitting vehicle-sized targets at ranges in excess of 3km. This shouldn't happen. 1941 vintage KVs and Panzer IVs are not Abrams or Leopard 2s.
 

Wodin

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I've had it come up say something like 2.65% Acc and still getting a hit out of 10 rounds! So either it's very very lucky or something isn't right there aswell. I've noticed hit's on very low percentage a fair bit though.

Another thing I find odd. Lets say an MG fires 100 rounds at an infantry unit. Say it gets 10 direct hits yet no killed or damage. How can you get a direct hit on a soldier for no damage!

Playing the first turn of The Road to Stalingrad scenario really does show up the super accuracy of weapons, infact at the moment it feels so off and out of whack the game doesn't feel playable, well not to any historical degree. All my pioneer platoons first turn, some in transport moving fast from where destroyed from 2900m+. It's hard to work out whats going on. Even at around 55% acc your getting way more hits than not. Blimey alot of 2.7 or so acc gets hits. Oh and I sent in 8 stukas and not one hit, all missed target, I thought Stukas where reasonable accurate planes?

Of all the scenarios to play this is the best one for Scott to watch and determine whats wrong.
 
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