[Tigers Unleashed] capital error

leonardus

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Hi,

Absolutely nobody here seems to be fired ww2 era ammo against armour plates or even know basics of phisics....Despite an exceptional game routine a fundamental error was made (just like in almost all other games): no penetration of armour plate from ball ammo ! I was pretty lucky to fired an ball ammo ww2 era of a romanian ZB 24 rifle and from 100 meters it penetrate 7 mm RHA of 250 BHN at 0@degree !!!!
Point !!! :(

Just go to http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=2453
and that precise teoretically confirm my practice. When a patch to depict that ?:)
 

Redwolf

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In the Bundeswehr when training Panzergrenadiers (aka the people riding in the APCs) it was pretty common to reinforce the point "get out when the firefight starts" by somebody putting a pistol round through the side armor. I hear it got got the job done.
 

keas66

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Any particular weapon systems/vehicles in particular ? . Steel with a BRN of 250 is pretty soft stuff .
German weapon systems at least early war ones used considerably harder steels for their armor plates

For example The First operational Panzer tank the Pz 1A was designed to be relatively immune to just the weapons you are describing :

Panzerkampfwagen I Ausf A:

Thinnest armor is 8mm
Thickest armor is 13mm

Armor is composed of carbon steel /hardened steel with alloy components (nickel) with quite high BRN numbers of 530

(Ref : Panzer Tracts No.1-1 , Jentz and Doyle , 2001, , ISBN 0-9708407-6-4 )

Putting this into the TU sandbox at say 100m range and firing at different parts with a Romanian 1st Line infantry unit ( ZB M1924 Rifle firing 7.92mmx 57 Ball ) :

I seem to have about 0.001%/0.37% Probability per round of a damage/kill on the rear or side and that is with the default armor value for the in game Panzer 1A of solid steel which only has a BRN value of 350


In "real life" Pz 1A's were supposed to be armored enough to be immune to rifle fire . Reports from the Spanish Civil war speak of rifle fire damaging external components , mg-13 barrels , vision blocks etc , but not penetrating the armor .

Have a play around with the sandbox and /or create a scenario with the weapon systems you want to test and then watch and see if anything unexpected happens . However personally I don't think my thin armored early war German tanks should be getting penetrated very often , if at all , by mere rifle fire .
 

keas66

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Whoops , I forgot to mention ...the sandbox kill Probability tab includes drop down menus to allow you select different ammo types from the firing weapon system as well as the ammo penetration graph for each selected ammo type . Going into the ammo penetration graph for you example and choosing a lower quality steel , I can get up to 6mm armor penetration at 0 degrees for instance at up to 200 meters . So it seems like things are in order no ? How this actually plays out in-game is another matter .
 

leonardus

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Whoops , I forgot to mention ...the sandbox kill Probability tab includes drop down menus to allow you select different ammo types from the firing weapon system as well as the ammo penetration graph for each selected ammo type . Going into the ammo penetration graph for you example and choosing a lower quality steel , I can get up to 6mm armor penetration at 0 degrees for instance at up to 200 meters . So it seems like things are in order no ? How this actually plays out in-game is another matter .
Can you put some screens here with the drop down menus ? I don't have yet TU but POA2, and there seems to be nothing of this sort except other materials like alluminum, etc...
By the way, above I wrote the fact when in training grounds almost 25 years ago, and firing to different armor plates with precise numbered characteristics. If your example tank have a 7mm plate of 250 BHN, I just not wanted to stay in there by any means when fire starts !! Period. I saw with my own eyes the holes in that kind of armour. And 250 BHN is 250 BHN, without any matter if is from steel , ''glass'' :cool:, ''apples'' :laugh:, and so on.....
Now, for the 350 BHN is a total other situation: I think it totally stop this bullets, only to make some calculus...here. And not to forget that an increase in BHN will almost decrease exponentially the width of perforated armor plate. I only not knowing why there isn't a sandbox with direct introduction of BHN, and results can be a way far improved.. :(
More more accurate than a simple material introduction. And that's very simple to use some formulas...
Another problem after playing years of ww2 tactical wargames is that the accuracy/realism suffers a lot because games were not considered the treatment of the armor plates and the material of the bullets. For example, was used a lot the Surface Hardened RHA, which is comporting very different against different ammo's, minor using of Volume hardened RHA, and so on...For that was implemented the capped ammo's. etc.....I just want to buy TU but only if there is an interest to patch the game with this kind of realism, 'cause 50 bucks here is almost a half of the monthly wage and there is other games to play with such degree of (little)realism which boring the ''realism geeks'' down to the bones...TU is the only game ever know to me which has a perfect potential to do that.
Thank you.
Cheers.
 

keas66

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Well here are the bitmaps at least for the ammunition penetration graphs for your Romanian infantry firing against a Panzer IA from the side . First one is using the standard steel rating for the Panzer 1A currently in the Database (Solid steel ) . The second is the same situation but with the quality of the steel lowered . ( BRN of 350 for the first , 250 for the low quality steel ) . You can see from the notes listed on the screen shot that the ammunition also has a bunch of physiView attachment 36232View attachment 36233cal parameters associated with it . I only selected the first ammunition type for this case , but their are another 4 types of ammunition listed for this ZB M1924 rifle . ( Heavy ball ,Practice ball,Silenced ball , AP/Tracer and AP/incendiary) .
 

leonardus

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Excellent here. I say it's acurattely true. Only one question remain: can the user input values such as BHN's for ammo's and armor plate ? And how is managing with what I'm sayed above about different treatments of plates (surface hardened for example) ?
 

keas66

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Well , you are certainly able to play around with data and temporarily add new armor types with different BRN numbers etc , but such additions only seem to last during the sandbox session itself , ie in-memory and never written to database files , so you can't currently keep any changes or modifications you might want to make even in a parallel set of db files ( which I actually think would be a pretty cool feature ). Also I have yet to actually see if I can apply any temporary db changes like this to an actual game . I don't think you can really play with the data like this except in the sandbox tool itself . I am only just starting to explore what is possible myself so others who have been working with the software for longer may have better opinions on the above . But that being said I am actually enjoying /getting good entertainment/education just from the sandbox tool itself currently! .
 

leonardus

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I think if it possible to do in sandbox migh be possible in game routine so. However the question about treated armor (face-hardened) still bother me; I don't know how the sandbox handle this because this type have different BHN's throughout volume. That's my ''cornerstone'' for any reasonable tactical game. Just verify and tell me that. If yes, yahoo !!, next days I will order this game.
Cheers.
 

keas66

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You want armor with multiple layers property wise ? I know that in the DataEditor at least an armor type has only a single set of material values , and when you look at the data entries for an armored vehicle the armor characteristics are just the specified armor type on a given face , the inclination /angle /slope of the armor and the thickness of the armor . Its a question to ask hps though I would think . I imagine it would also greatly complicate the code /logic for penetration as well since now you have layers in your armor and boundaries between the layers .
 

leonardus

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So, the answer is no. No treated armor types... Hmm...that's make me angry. Hey, isn't anybody here from the developers to say something ? How is than this game ''the most accurate'' by the reviews when large portion of armor plates in ww2 for germans was face-hardened ? In fact, just I sayed before, for this type of plates was developed the special AP ammo, the capped ones,......etc.....take a look here: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=26121, http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=261767, etc.
 

keas66

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Well what you are asking for is like I say probably excessively complicated to model in what is a commercial release , not a military simulation designed to understand precisely the penetration characteristics of very detailed ammunition models against very detailed , full profile armor characteristics . I think maybe your expectations are a little high ?. Simplifications do have to be made to allow the code to run in a reasonable time-frame on something slightly smaller that a 64 x Xeon Processor box with vast amounts of memory . Having a single set of material characteristics for the armor type seems like a reasonable simplification to me . I can't think of any other game over the last twenty years which would model face hardened armor plates as you want with complex multilayer-ed armor characteristics in a single plate of steel ? If you already have POA2 , then you probably have some idea of the level of detail in that simulation - you really are not getting much more with TU I think - just the WW2 database added in as well as whatever changes needed to be made to POA2 to handle 1930-1940's era weapon systems and tactics .
 

leonardus

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Yes, partially you're right. But with the ''complicated calculus'' not. In fact applying one or two precise formulas for that is needed. And are plenty of them. Take a look here: http://www.combinedfleet.com/gunarmor.htm. All are in our ''mouth''.. And with the power needed for calculations, I think nowaday technologies, like quad-cores, etc, is more than sufficient. Not to mention that the game has no video stressing at all ~!:). And with the ''commercially'' problem, yes indeed here you're right.
''NOTE: Per our agreement with the US Government, the civilian release version allows users to customize and edit many of the data tables including TO&E's and force structures, leaders, nationality values, weather, and the TEC (terrain effects). However, it does not support editing of the weapons or ammunition related tables, although they may be viewed.''
Than, let down affirmations like this: ''ww2 historically accurate'', ''mind-blowing realism'', etc.....
False, false. Excuse me please, but in this case, this is nothing more than a Steel Panthers ''on steroids''....
I do not spend money in this instance, when (almost) same attitude is present in many other tactical games. And which have a much more video presence, like CC series and so on...
So, my humble opinion is that: ''nothing (trully) new on the games front.....'':)
Cheers.
 

keas66

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I am a little confused . A the start of this thread you said you had POA ? In which case you should have a pretty good idea of what a WW2 version of POA would look like . It certainly is Steel panthers like in how it appears to play at times ( 2D Top Down game ) but you have access to view and modify the characteristics and tactical behavior of your units as well as the ability to view combat results right down to individual rounds . You get a very detailed LOS subsystem and you also get a C2 model which attempts to provide a much more difficult / realistic way to view the battle through the eyes of a commander who has little control over how a battle flows once contact has been made . Your control is in the management of your units Various SOP settings . Also you get to set up control/behavior of Groups of units set to carry out a specific task on the battlefield ie Maneuver Groups - this is sort of like what Panther Games does in its Command Ops and earlier series . Does all this make it a better game than current tactical level games like revisions of the Close Combat series from Matrix and others ? I guess that is up to you . For me I always enjoyed the earlier versions of this game in the form of Tigers on the Prowl and Panthers in the Shadows . My hope is this a game can provide an updated experience of those great games . I personally don't require this game to provide the sort of highly detailed armor profile modelling that you describe . What I do require is that they add new armor types into the DB to represent the early war German steels with the higher BRN numbers . Right now the armor table is lacking any such entries . I have raised this with hpssims previously and they have indicated they are looking to correct this . However this level of armor modelling simplification is good enough for me .

But in the end its up to you . Spending half a months salary to pick up this game if it is not providing the level of detail you require would seem a no go to me .

Thanks!
 

keas66

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I took the opportunity of asking hpssims themselves for a description of how they currently modeled armor in POA and TU . Their reply was as follows :

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"You are correct - I don't model laminates/multi-layer plates discretely. I haven't looked at the forum thread, but the math can get extremely complicated depending on the situation. Granted it isn't too bad with basic materials such as homogeneous solid penetrators and face-hardened steel, but the same token these basic cases can be modeled accurately by simply increasing the BHN value of the material (sometimes with minor tweaks to the density and strength), and/or adjusting the modeling "kinetic rating" of the material.

It's also important to remember that the same modeling that is used in TU is used in POA - so if I were to put in the layered armor modeling it would have to apply to all of the modern stuff too. And that's where it gets a LOT more complicated, since now there are all sort of materials used: composites, resin-based materials, polymers, fibers, and the like, bonded to other each other or metal in any number of combinations. And in most cases it's not just two layers - most modern composite armors have dozens of layers, or more. Plus, I'd also have to include more than just solid penetrators in the models, such as shaped charge jets, multiple warheads, lasers, etc.

So it's true.. on this issue I decided to just allow for one armor layer, figuring that it was easy enough to achieve accurate results by adjusting the material qualities. And it's proven to be accurate as long as we have at least one real-world test result to use to set the initial values. Though, obviously it has no "predictive" ability "

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hopefully this answers your questions . I think the statement that "these basic cases can be modeled accurately by simply increasing the BHN value of the material" pretty much covers it for myself at least .

Thanks !
 

leonardus

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That's not an option for a hard-core tactical game hobbist. How to simulate a FH plate by increasing the BHN's of a homogenous RHa one ? Impossible and very innacurate. Different kind of ammo's performs very different against them; for example: capped AP performs very well against FH but not so well against RHA ones. Viceversa is not so simple, because at much lower angles of impact the projectile shatter. And I do not talk about multi-spaced layered armor plates, you just understand wrong, or don't know what is FH. I spoke about single layer FH armor plate (carburized ones). Yes FH, were in ww2 made even in RHA FH, so layered structures, but in a much small percentage than carburized. And so on...
No, I will not buy this game. Just playing CC, Steel Panthers, etc...
Cheers.

P.S. Maybe ask the HPS if they have in mind to improve game with what I'm saying.
I'm an engineer, former worker in a ammo plant about 15 years ago, now unemployed, and know that's almost nothing but adding some formulas and a few new parameters.
A lot more and hard is to gather info's about ww2 vehicles, materials, years of service, etc.....
 
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keas66

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Well I bow to your superior knowledge in this area , however I would argue that this is just a game - much like ASL is just a board game , both of which could be reasonable said are really only intended for a hard core tactical gamer and neither of which do anything anywhere as complicated as you require for armor modelling . From hpssim's response it does not sound like they intend to change the way they model armor anytime soon .

Thanks!
 
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