Thrown DC from above against OT AFV

Mister T

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If a DC is thrown from an upper level against an OT AFV and provided the CE DRM is reduced by Elevation effects, i understand that as per D5.311, the AFV is treated as unarmored so the A23.5/C7.346 DC Position DR is NA.
This is conditional upon the act of throwing a DC at the AFV qualifying as "receiving fire" for the purpose of D5.311.

Questions:
Is the DC Position DR NA?
Is a PAATC necessary when throwing a DC in such a situation? (towards an "unarmored AFV" :unsure: )

Thank you,
 

Vinnie

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Do you ever need a PAATC before throwing a DC?
I think the vehicle is still armoured but the crew is treated as unprotected so it may break or be reduced. The vehicle woukd still get the advantage of being armoured for destruction purposes
 

Mister T

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Do you ever need a PAATC before throwing a DC?
No, that's one issue solved.

For the rest, D5.311 states that the AFV is treated as unarmored. I inferred in the initial question that there would be no DC position DR (and the HE TK vs. unarmored target table is used for a big boom).
 

Vinnie

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No, that's one issue solved.

For the rest, D5.311 states that the AFV is treated as unarmored. I inferred in the initial question that there would be no DC position DR (and the HE TK vs. unarmored target table is used for a big boom).
I don't think that is entirely true.
5.311 UNPROTECTED CREWS:
The Inherent crew (as well as each Passenger) of a vehicle receiving fire (including Fire Lane Residual FP) [EXC: Sniper attack] through an unarmored Target Facing/Aspect (C3.9; including any OT AFV receiving either Air Bursts or fire from a higher elevation whose elevation advantage is > the range [5.31]--and, vs mines, the PRC of any AFV with a hull AF of 0 [B28.43]) is Vulnerable even if BU, and receives no (or a reduced; 5.31) CE DRM. Consequently the crew is not susceptible to Stun/Recall from such an attack; it is instead subject to PTC/MC/K/KIA results. If it breaks it must rout from the vehicle using normal Infantry rout procedures [EXC: it expends all its initial-RtPh MF to be placed beneath the vehicle]. The vehicle automatically Stops (no Stop MP is spent) when its crew breaks. If the crew routs or is eliminated, the vehicle is marked with an Abandoned counter. If an OT AFV's crew would receive a CE DRM reduced by Elevation-Effects/Air-Bursts to < its normal CE DRM, that AFV is instead treated as unarmored and the attack vs it--but not vs its PRC--is resolved (with no Air Burst TEM) either as per A7.308 (for non-ordnance/Indirect-Fire-HE) or on the proper TK Table using the pertinent Unarmored Vehicle TK#. C3.71 also applies if a HE CH occurred.

The crew is treated as being in an unarmoured vehicle but the vehicle itself is not treated as unar,oured.
 

Mister T

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Please keep reading D5.311 till the end 🥁

(...)If an OT AFV's crew would receive a CE DRM reduced by Elevation-Effects/Air-Bursts to < its normal CE DRM, that AFV is instead treated as unarmored and the attack vs it--but not vs its PRC--is resolved (with no Air Burst TEM) either as per A7.308 (for non-ordnance/Indirect-Fire-HE) or on the proper TK Table using the pertinent Unarmored Vehicle TK#. C3.71 also applies if a HE CH occurred.
 

Jon

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I don't think that is entirely true.
5.311 UNPROTECTED CREWS:
The Inherent crew (as well as each Passenger) of a vehicle receiving fire (including Fire Lane Residual FP) [EXC: Sniper attack] through an unarmored Target Facing/Aspect (C3.9; including any OT AFV receiving either Air Bursts or fire from a higher elevation whose elevation advantage is > the range [5.31]--and, vs mines, the PRC of any AFV with a hull AF of 0 [B28.43]) is Vulnerable even if BU, and receives no (or a reduced; 5.31) CE DRM. Consequently the crew is not susceptible to Stun/Recall from such an attack; it is instead subject to PTC/MC/K/KIA results. If it breaks it must rout from the vehicle using normal Infantry rout procedures [EXC: it expends all its initial-RtPh MF to be placed beneath the vehicle]. The vehicle automatically Stops (no Stop MP is spent) when its crew breaks. If the crew routs or is eliminated, the vehicle is marked with an Abandoned counter. If an OT AFV's crew would receive a CE DRM reduced by Elevation-Effects/Air-Bursts to < its normal CE DRM, that AFV is instead treated as unarmored and the attack vs it--but not vs its PRC--is resolved (with no Air Burst TEM) either as per A7.308 (for non-ordnance/Indirect-Fire-HE) or on the proper TK Table using the pertinent Unarmored Vehicle TK#. C3.71 also applies if a HE CH occurred.

The crew is treated as being in an unarmoured vehicle but the vehicle itself is not treated as unar,oured.
Vinnie

You ignored the 2nd part of the rule you quoted

5.311 UNPROTECTED CREWS:
The Inherent crew (as well as each Passenger) of a vehicle receiving fire (including Fire Lane Residual FP) [EXC: Sniper attack] through an unarmored Target Facing/Aspect (C3.9; including any OT AFV receiving either Air Bursts or fire from a higher elevation whose elevation advantage is > the range [5.31]--and, vs mines, the PRC of any AFV with a hull AF of 0 [B28.43]) is Vulnerable even if BU, and receives no (or a reduced; 5.31) CE DRM. Consequently the crew is not susceptible to Stun/Recall from such an attack; it is instead subject to PTC/MC/K/KIA results. If it breaks it must rout from the vehicle using normal Infantry rout procedures [EXC: it expends all its initial-RtPh MF to be placed beneath the vehicle]. The vehicle automatically Stops (no Stop MP is spent) when its crew breaks. If the crew routs or is eliminated, the vehicle is marked with an Abandoned counter. If an OT AFV's crew would receive a CE DRM reduced by Elevation-Effects/Air-Bursts to < its normal CE DRM, that AFV is instead treated as unarmored and the attack vs it--but not vs its PRC--is resolved (with no Air Burst TEM) either as per A7.308 (for non-ordnance/Indirect-Fire-HE) or on the proper TK Table using the pertinent Unarmored Vehicle TK#. C3.71 also applies if a HE CH occurred.

So as an example, lets take aCE OT AFV at ground level in the street. Normally the crew would receive a +2 CE DRM
In the adjacent hex is an enemy squad (lets say a British 4-5-8 )in a building at Level 2.
This squad fires its IFP at the CE crew. The elevation advantage (2) is greater then the range (1) so the CE DRM is reduced to +1 [D5.31 and D6.61]

So the crew is receiving a reduced CE DRM and is not susceptible to Stun/Recall from such an attack; it is instead subject to PTC/MC/K/KIA results [D5.311, first half of the rule]

Because the OT AFV crew has its CE DRM reduced by elevation effects to < its normal CE DRM, the AFV is treated as unarmored and the attack on the vehicle {but not the PRC] from the squads IFP is resolved as per A7.308

So the squad IFP attacks the AFV as unarmored on the * Vehicle line of the IFT, with a TK# of 5. If the vehicle is not eliminated, the PRC will be attacked will be attacked with 4FP and the reduced CE DRM of +1.


Moral: Don't drive OT AFVs down city/town streets with tall buildings on each side.

Cheers
Jon
 

MajorDomo

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Wouldn't an adjacent 458 at level 2 attack the vehicle on the 8 FP IFT column as it is doubled for being at higher level and adjacent?

Also, this logic would mean a DC would attack an OT vehicle on the 30 IFT column in the level 2 thrown DC attack with no placement roll, a sure kill barring a dud.

Seems to me, that throwing a DC from a second level at a moving OT vehicle in an adjacent hex should be able to miss without only a DC dud.

Rich
 
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Jon

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Wouldn't an adjacent 458 at level 2 attack the vehicle on the 8 FP IFT column as it is doubled for being at higher level and adjacent?
Ypu are correct. I was typing too quick before I went to work
So the squad would attack the halftrack with a TK of 7. Even more reason not to drive those OT AFV down city streets when the enemy is up on high :)

Also, this logic would mean a DC would attack an OT vehicle on the 30 IFT column in the level 2 thrown DC attack with no placement roll, a sure kill barring a dud.

Seems to me, that throwing a DC from a second level at a moving OT vehicle in an adjacent hex should be able to miss without only a DC dud.

Rich
Is an AFV whos normal CE DRM is reduced by elevation advantage and is thus treated as an unarmored vehicle per D5.311 treated, for a Thrown DC attack, as:
a) an unarmored vehicle which is attacked with 30FP and a +2 IFT DRM for a thrown DC [so attacked with a * Vehicle TK of 12 and a +2 IFT DRM, {so an Original DR of 10 would be needed for immobilization}
or
b) as an AFV still with the +2 DRM being applied to the DC Position DR, which would be countered by -2 Elevation Advantage and -2 OT and lets say +2 for Non-Stopped AFV. . So net DRM of 0 to Position DR

I think it is the first one, to be in line with D5.31, D5.311 and D6.61.

Moral (again). Don't drive down the road in an OT AFV is enemy are up high in adjacent buildings.

Cheers
Jon
 
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