Thoughts on SPR

[Psycho]

How many people on here think that Steamboat Willie killed Mellish and then walked past Upham on the stairs? I am not one of them but won't tell why I know the difference until I hear from you guys. I tried to convince my friend when he thought they were the same guy and it comes up many times on the imdb board.

 

[paulkenny]

It absolutely was him. He recognized him on the steps and was one of the reasons Upham killed him, for killing the Captain after the captain saved his life.

He even said Fubar to the guy he was stabbing up the room, which obviously he heard from the Americans.

 

[Harold]

Not knowing any German what did Steamboat Willie say?

 

[pryoung]

Nobodys using Speilburg as source material.

Actually, the Central Texas guys did. Check out the scenario "Saving Ryan's Privates" in the "Bonsai!!" issue.



Pete

 

[Oliver]

"How many people on here think that Steamboat Willie killed Mellish and then walked past Upham on the stairs?"

I don't. I think the Germans' uniforms are different. Of course, that could be a continuity problem.

The Steamboat subplot is convoluted. When Steamboat is captured and released, the main argument for shooting him is that he could find his way back to a German unit and fight again. Well, that's exactly what happens. So, by the logic of the movie, they should have shot this prisoner -- an error that the American interpreter "corrects" in the end.

Ironically, Miller dies for doing the moral thing -- releasing Steamboat, who eventually kills Miller (even though most likely unknowingly). I'm not sure if Spielberg is saying that all German prisoners are sneaky and deserved to be shot, or that war is morally amibiguous and confusing.

Regardless, we're left with the interpreter's killing of a POW. By most standards of conduct, this is "wrong." In the world of SPR, however, it's portrayed as poetic justice.

 

[paulkenny]

I am more inclined to view the German in symbolic terms, ie war itself. Miller tries to be noble and gets killed by war.

 

[Chas Argent]

Not knowing any German what did Steamboat Willie say?

He said "I am a jelly donut!!"

 

[da priest]

He said "I am a jelly donut!!"

Da*all you evil rules changers!!!:nuts:

It was "I am a sugared donut!!!":smoke:

They got it right in the scenario....:whist:

 

[Chas Argent]

Ron, I'm still tryin' to learn 'em; I can't even think about changin' 'em!!

 

[Patrocles]

I've only seen the movie once, didn't particularly care for it. Mainly because of the actions of the American troops seemed quite "off" for an experienced Ranger unit. [If I have this confused with another movie, let me know...been a few years....] IIRC, the Rangers supposedly fought in North Africa and Italy as well (isn't there a guy collecting sand or something?). Anyway, besides that, they are supposed to be Rangers, yet all the actions of the troops shows them to be a bunch of belly-aching, sniveling little girls, bitching the entire time about the mission. Personally I do not think this was realistic, and I doubt that many Allied units were as jaded about the war during June 1944 as these guys were portrayed.

Anyway...to mortar rounds....
When a mortar round is fired, the firing pin in the weapon strikes an ignition primer. The purpose of this primer is (only) to ignite the charges that will propel the round downrange. This mechanism is distinct from the fuze mechanism that "arms" the round. In fact, if a person holding the round struck the primer on a firing pin, it would have ignited the ignition charge and cooked the throwers hand pretty well.

(I apologize for the incorrect terminoly here...been a few years since I looked at a diagram of a round....)

Inside the fuze on the nose of the round, there is a hollow kind of "tube" inside. There is a mechanism (I'll call it is 'blocking cylinder" here) that will slide within this tube. When the cylinder is towards the nose, the round is "safe." The blocking cylinder may be held in place by the "safety wire" which is inserted into the nose of the round and holds it in place. (Not all modern rounds have a safety wire - one reason why if you drop an M720 60mm HE round more than 10 feet you are not supposed to use it). Once the wire is removed, the cylinder can slide relatively freely inside the tube.

To arm the round, this cylinder must slide towards the back end of the round. Usually this occurs when the projectile is fired. Similar to the driver of a car being pressed back into the seat when a car accelerates, the projectile is accelerated very quickly towards the end of the tube (from 0 meters per second up to maybe 250 meters per second)...this causes the blocking cylinder to slide to the rear.

So, in SPR, removing the safety wire, thumping the round on the ground would provide a "jolt" strong enough to shift the cylinder, arming the fuze. No real problems with the theory. The problem (as others have pointed out) is that the fuze (nose of the round) would need to strike something in order for the round to go off. This is why mortars do not usually fire at elevations less than 45 degrees - the round will land "flat" on the side and will skip along the ground without detonating....

[Aside: Most "interesting" moment I had during Desert Storm was when a 120mm mortar pit was taken out by CAS. An HE round got blown out of the position and came spinning towards us...seemed about 6 feet of the ground, in a flat spin...not going too fast...just slow enough to think "Hey, that's a 120 HE round coming towards us....Hmmmm, this could taste like $hit." Nothing we could do but watch it...wonder if the fuze would strike anything...and if the round had the safety wire in. Fortunately the wire was in it still...and it did not hit anything other than sand. Landed about 30 feet away and skidded flat across the sand. Anyway, back to our story....]

An additional safety feature: Once the blocking cylinder has moved towards the rear, a spring loaded "shear pin" (more like a "button" today) inside the round will be pushed out of the round. While inside the mortar tube, this pin cannot be ejected. Once the round leaves the muzzle of the tube, the springs ejected this last safety pin (one of the reasons that mortar crews for many mortar systms duck their heads below the level of the muzzle - so they do not get hit by this pin) and the round is fully armed. (This feature has evolved to where the pin is not actually ejected from the round, it simply pops out of the side slightly...enough to arm the round but not affect the flight of the round or pose a hazard.) One of the reasons that a "dud" may occur is if this mechanism does not function properly.

As others have pointed out, there are a couple of people who used mortar rounds like grenades unders duress. Fully plausible, especially from a higher elevation, or in an urban environment where the fuze could also strike a vertical surface and detonate.

Hope this has been interesting for those who care.

good post! I'm not a combat grog so I didn't catch a lot of these errors.

I have to agree with your first statement about not liking the film. Though i liked some parts I really don't care for Speilberg's work because he is never subtle! the man just beats you over the head with his message! ha ha

And though I could see the soldiers not liking their mission the part when the troops mutiny and miller reveals his background was pretty lame. Or if such actions by rangers were the order of the day then they were not elite, well-disciplined troops...imho

I will never see the film again and I don't recommend this film to other persons.

 

[jasperdog3329]

Thanks for your post Skygod -- really helped me understand the whole mortar round thing and now I won't be pissed off that they don't strike the rounds on the baseplate's firing pin!

 

[ON TOP ASL]

Wanting to know where to go to Holland so I could apply WWII knowledge to my game

Hi Gilbert, this is the place for you, both an ASL tournament and every year a WW2-historical tour!

www.xs4all.nl/~hennies

 

[ON TOP ASL]

Best moments in SPR:
1. Enter the Tigers, sound (shkreeek) and foxholes (vanishing by sheer vibrations) in the last city-fight.
2. Night walking, enlighened by remote star-shells (got me thinking of night ASL scenarios).
Good movie! (I am european)

 

[Caise]

TO END ALL WARS is based on the book by Ernst Gordon (the narrator) recounting his experiences as a POW. According to the director most the scenes one might take as symbology actually happened. What these POWs did was opposite of what is usually done; they actually tried to apply the teachings of ancient philosophers (especially Jesus Christ) to their horrendous situation. In particular the idea of substitionary suffering (e.g., the crucifixion, the beating of the once selfish Keifer Sutherland guy, etc...) was put into practice.

Basically it is a real life story of courage and forgiveness. It's about the triumph of the human spirit over inhumanity, and the journey from the prison of self-survival to the freedom of self-sacrifice. BTW, Ernest Gordon did survive the horror of that World War II prison camp, and went on to become the Dean of the Chapel at Princeton University for 26 years. He found a greater calling: to serve others.

I found the movie inspiring, humbling, and reflective.

Rico,

Thanks for the insights. If the crucifixion actually happened then it makes more sense for me.

Thanks,

Caise

 

[Caise]

It absolutely was him. He recognized him on the steps and was one of the reasons Upham killed him, for killing the Captain after the captain saved his life.

He even said Fubar to the guy he was stabbing up the room, which obviously he heard from the Americans.

I believe that the guy who killed Malish is heavier and larger than Steamboat Wille. Besides, he wears an SS collar tab and SW does not.

Not the same guy in my opinion.

Caise

 

[paulkenny]

He knew Uphams name right before Upham shot him.

 

[Georgii2222]

I believe that the guy who killed Malish is heavier and larger than Steamboat Wille. Besides, he wears an SS collar tab and SW does not.

Not the same guy in my opinion.

Caise

Agreed. I don't think there's any question these are different guys.

 

[DLYoung70]

He knew Uphams name right before Upham shot him.

Paul,

This you are correct about. Steamboat Willie WAS attached to the unit that attacked the town in the last scene, he was in the group that was shooting across the bridge at the very end and killed Miller, and when that group was taken prisoner by Upham he got his "just desserts".

The question in play isn't if he was there, but if the German soldier who went upstairs into the building and fought h2h with Mellish (sp?), killed him with the knife, and then walked downstairs past the fear-stricken Upham was this same guy. I don't think it was. The stabber guy was heavier it seemed, and also wearing an SS uniform. The look similar because of the shaved head, but I'm almost 100% certain they are not the same soldier. Willie was fighting with the unit, but not the guy who won the knife fight.

Darrell

 

[Caise]

He knew Uphams name right before Upham shot him.

There is no question that the guy Upham shot at the end is Steamboat Willie. It is just not the same guy as on the stairs that stabbed Mallish. SW does not have an SS uniform (see post above).

I saw a translation on the internet of what was said to Mallish while being stabbed (no telling how accurate it was). I don't remember it all, but it had to do with "go quietly and it will be easier" and other such stuff. Nothing about FUBAR.

The two are not the same guy as far as I can tell.

Caise

 

[paulkenny]

I have the DVD in my office and will check right now!!!