THH Question

Mr Incredible

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If there is a vehicle in bypass in motion of say a Japanese squad (with a CC counter in the location) may that squad try for a THH in its MPh and attack that vehicle in bypass with the THH?

Not too sure as the vehicle is in the same hex and not ADJACENT.
 

Robin Reeve

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A11.7 says that a vehicle holds Known infantry in Melee.
If the Japanese squad is not concealed, it is not in Good order and thus cannot generate a THH (G1.421 requires the squad to be in Good Order).
 

klasmalmstrom

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Believe that CC counter should have been removed in the CCPh of the turn it was placed. Not that it matters for the question in hand.

ASOP.
8.31B Automatic capture of unescorted abandoned vehicle(s) (A21.2). Flip/remove CC, or retain/remove Melee, counter as appropriate. Dare-Death Infantry remain berserk only if in Melee (G18.6).

Per Q&A ADJACENT does include the unit's own Location, but it seems a bit strange that one could make a Banzai Charge speding 0 MF (and thus free from any defensive first fire).
 

Aaron Cleavin

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A hex is ADJACENT to itself hence cannot create THH, A.8 there is a LOS and one could advance to same location by not advancing.

This has come up elsewhere that a location is ADJACENT to itself, will see If I can find Reference,.

G1.421 though allows creation as it is the Mph and you are within 8MF, Specifically 0 MF needed. I actually think you could detonate a DCwithout any
fire opportunities by defender as can do CC without expending any MF, for a non DC CC attack though you would need to wait to CC phase and would
be subject to attacker in Dfph, but would not be moving
 
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Mister T

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Per Q&A ADJACENT does include the unit's own Location, but it seems a bit strange that one could make a Banzai Charge speding 0 MF (and thus free from any defensive first fire).
But it would be equally strange imo to be forced to exit the location before launching the THH, especially as Japanese are "same-hex specialists" (for DC placement purposes for instance).
 

klasmalmstrom

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This has come up elsewhere that a location is ADJACENT to itself, will see If I can find Reference,.
There is this Q&A:
A.8
Is a Location ADJACENT to itself? I.e., if a rule permits some activity in an ADJACENT Location, and does not “specifically
exclude” the unit’s current Location from that activity, is the current Location included by default?
A. Yes. Yes.


G1.421 though allows creation as it is the Mph and you are within 8MF, Specifically 0 MF needed. I actually think you could detonate a DCwithout any
fire opportunities by defender as can do CC without expending any MF, for a non DC CC attack though you would need to wait to CC phase and would
be subject to attacker in Dfph, but would not be moving
If indeed a THH can be created, it can attack the AFV in CC immediately per G1.423:
"...A T-H Hero who is in his Designated Target’s Location during his MPh may make a CC attack vs it at that time, ..."
 

klasmalmstrom

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But it would be equally strange imo to be forced to exit the location before launching the THH, especially as Japanese are "same-hex specialists" (for DC placement purposes for instance).
Yes, perhaps the initial rules writers perhaps did not take this situation into account. Perhaps that the THH at least spent 1 MF would have been a good compromise - at least allowing some DFF.
 

Aaron Cleavin

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There is this Q&A:
A.8
Is a Location ADJACENT to itself? I.e., if a rule permits some activity in an ADJACENT Location, and does not “specifically
exclude” the unit’s current Location from that activity, is the current Location included by default?
A. Yes. Yes.



If indeed a THH can be created, it can attack the AFV in CC immediately per G1.423:
"...A T-H Hero who is in his Designated Target’s Location during his MPh may make a CC attack vs it at that time, ..."
G1.5 Banzai means the not ADJACENT restriction for Human Waves does not apply to Banzai, so it would seem that an AFV in bypass of a Japanese MMC in the Japanese player turn can
potentially get turned into scrap metal sushi without right of reply.
 

von Marwitz

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Interesting thread!

I tend to support the interpretation, that a THH can be created and indeed attack with a 0 MF expenditure, i.e. 'instant blow up' without DFF possibilities.

From the meta-standpoint, the US player knows that the Japanese can blow themselves up when within the same hex with the enemy during the MPh. So bringing about this situation, the US player did have the opportunity to weigh his risks beforehand - including not to be able to react to the attack.

From the historical standpoint (being aware that reality arguments can go any way) one can say it is quite a scary and dangerous thing to send a tank forward without infantry escort in concealment-type terrain knowing that the Japanese are employing suicide anti-tank tactics. Visibility and hearing from within a tank is limited at the best of times. Even more so when there is foilage and shrubbery all around that seriously inhibit it further.

von Marwitz
 

CTKnudsen

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Seems pretty clear to me that the MMC can create a THH, as there is an AFV within 8MF. Assuming the THH roll is a success, the THH must conduct a banzai charge toward its designated target, per G1.423. A Banzai charge is a HW, but can start ADJACENT, per G1.5. A location is ADJACENT to itself, and an AFV in bypass is usually considered in the same LOCATION as the hex it's in. A unit ceases being a HW unit if it starts an impulse in the same location as a known, armed enemy unit, per A25.234. A THH can attack it's designated target in the MPh, again per G1.423.

So the unit in the same LOCATION as the AFV, in its MPh, creates a THH. This THH immediately conducts a Banzai. At the beginning of it's first impulse, it immediately ceases being a banzai unit, having expended 0 MF, and may immediately conduct a CCV attack against the AFV, remembering to roll for ATMM as appropriate.

The lesson here? Don't try and sleaze freeze GO Japanese MMC without killing them immediately afterward.
 

Hemaelstrom

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Note too the EXC to A25.231 that mentions the case at hand - Banzai charge against same-hex target (not that it adds much to understanding the situation - just that the circumstances did come under consideration at some point in the rules)
 
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