Hey guys, I just finished Norman Davies' book on the warsaw Uprising and I was wondering, how come no one ever made a scenario for this momentuous battle? (Yes I have looked) I noticed players designed such a scenario for some of the other wargames but not East Front II. There's already a Polish faction, people just have to make a OOB for the Home Army which might include partisan units right? (I dunno, I'm not an expert on these things). I'm just very curious why it hasn't been done.
The Warsaw Uprising 1944?
- Thread starter Koichi
- Start date
John Given
Member
I realize this is an old post, but I'll chime in.
My guess is because of the "sensitive" nature of the fight - I have noticed that any situation involving the deaths of many jews has been left out of the campaign series. As I'm sure you know - the battle was a slaughter, with the Russians waiting some miles away. The theory is that Stalin knew there were many jews in the warsaw ghettos, and deliberately gave the germans time to finish them off. Although the jewish and polish residents fought as best they could, in the end they were completely wiped out - the few survivors sent off to concentration camps.
I once considered creating a smallish scenario called "Escape from Sobibor" which is based on a movie, which was in turn, based on a real life event - of a bunch of concentration camp victims (a few thousand!) who successfully broke out of the camp and killed alot of germans. It would make a great scenario, but I didn't want to dredge that kind of stuff into the game, even though it happened in real life. It's also kind of hard for me to read how other folks would react to it - what if the scen accidentally leaned in favor of the german? I think you can see what I mean. Go rent the movie and I'm certain you'll enjoy it - but I'm not going to create a scen based on it, for the same reason the "Warsaw Uprising" should probably be left to the historians.
My guess is because of the "sensitive" nature of the fight - I have noticed that any situation involving the deaths of many jews has been left out of the campaign series. As I'm sure you know - the battle was a slaughter, with the Russians waiting some miles away. The theory is that Stalin knew there were many jews in the warsaw ghettos, and deliberately gave the germans time to finish them off. Although the jewish and polish residents fought as best they could, in the end they were completely wiped out - the few survivors sent off to concentration camps.
I once considered creating a smallish scenario called "Escape from Sobibor" which is based on a movie, which was in turn, based on a real life event - of a bunch of concentration camp victims (a few thousand!) who successfully broke out of the camp and killed alot of germans. It would make a great scenario, but I didn't want to dredge that kind of stuff into the game, even though it happened in real life. It's also kind of hard for me to read how other folks would react to it - what if the scen accidentally leaned in favor of the german? I think you can see what I mean. Go rent the movie and I'm certain you'll enjoy it - but I'm not going to create a scen based on it, for the same reason the "Warsaw Uprising" should probably be left to the historians.
Boonierat
Biệt Ðộng Quân
John, I think he is refering to the polish resistance uprising that took place when the soviets were approaching the city in the summer of 1944, not that of the Jewish ghetto that happened the year before.
John Given
Member
EDIT: Boonierat, you were correct!
Why would the Soviets delay their advance for a month? It apparently had to do with Soviet politcs. There is an excellent website called www.warsawuprising.com which contains all kinds of interesting info - lots of photos too.
PS. Sorry Koichi 'bout the original post - you see what happens when I open my trap when I don't know my history as well as I think?
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to read more about the Polish uprising. After this, I fear Boonierat is going to test me on the subject matter shortly.
Why would the Soviets delay their advance for a month? It apparently had to do with Soviet politcs. There is an excellent website called www.warsawuprising.com which contains all kinds of interesting info - lots of photos too.
PS. Sorry Koichi 'bout the original post - you see what happens when I open my trap when I don't know my history as well as I think?
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to read more about the Polish uprising. After this, I fear Boonierat is going to test me on the subject matter shortly.
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No problem John Given 
You're not the only one to mistaken the 1944 Warsaw Uprising for the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. But yeah, this later battle was of a much greater scale. Whereas several hundred Jews revolted in 1943, several tens of thousands of Poles revolted in 1944 and gained control of large sections of the city before they were taken down.
The motivations for the Poles to revolt at that time, as well as for the Soviets to withhold their forces across the Vistula, and the Western Allies to apparently sit on their duff, are debated to this day. Max Hastings, in his book Armageddon: The Battle for Germany 1944-1945, pointed out what seems to be a contradiction in the Polish strategy. If the Poles only needed the Germans defeated at any cost, they didn't need to revolt. Allied superiority on all fronts made that outcome a matter of time. However, the Poles were not revolting against one, but two factions. They obviously wanted to throw off the Nazis but also needed a show of force to guarantee that their country won't be occupied by the Soviets after the war. At the same time, the poorly-trained and equipped Army Krajowa had zero chance of success against the Germans unless the Soviet forces joined up with them in battle. Do you guys see? In order to succeed, the Poles needed assistance from the very faction they were revolting to against.
Anyway, I thought this would be a most interesting battle to make a scenario for. We could even divide it up into a couple of phases, such as the opening hours where the Poles seize key German positions before they were prepared, the battle in Wola where the forces of SS-Gruppenfuhrer Reinefarth plow through the suburbs killing tens of thousands of Poles, and of course, the main battle for the city center. The main battle I would envision to be similar to the EF II "Verdun on the Volga" where heavily armed German forces fight their way hex by hex against a Polish force comprised mostly of Partisans. To make it more historically accurate, as part of the Allied force, we could create a huge Soviet army sitting on the other side of the river than always have 0% chance of being released.
You're not the only one to mistaken the 1944 Warsaw Uprising for the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. But yeah, this later battle was of a much greater scale. Whereas several hundred Jews revolted in 1943, several tens of thousands of Poles revolted in 1944 and gained control of large sections of the city before they were taken down. The motivations for the Poles to revolt at that time, as well as for the Soviets to withhold their forces across the Vistula, and the Western Allies to apparently sit on their duff, are debated to this day. Max Hastings, in his book Armageddon: The Battle for Germany 1944-1945, pointed out what seems to be a contradiction in the Polish strategy. If the Poles only needed the Germans defeated at any cost, they didn't need to revolt. Allied superiority on all fronts made that outcome a matter of time. However, the Poles were not revolting against one, but two factions. They obviously wanted to throw off the Nazis but also needed a show of force to guarantee that their country won't be occupied by the Soviets after the war. At the same time, the poorly-trained and equipped Army Krajowa had zero chance of success against the Germans unless the Soviet forces joined up with them in battle. Do you guys see? In order to succeed, the Poles needed assistance from the very faction they were revolting to against.
Anyway, I thought this would be a most interesting battle to make a scenario for. We could even divide it up into a couple of phases, such as the opening hours where the Poles seize key German positions before they were prepared, the battle in Wola where the forces of SS-Gruppenfuhrer Reinefarth plow through the suburbs killing tens of thousands of Poles, and of course, the main battle for the city center. The main battle I would envision to be similar to the EF II "Verdun on the Volga" where heavily armed German forces fight their way hex by hex against a Polish force comprised mostly of Partisans. To make it more historically accurate, as part of the Allied force, we could create a huge Soviet army sitting on the other side of the river than always have 0% chance of being released.
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John Given
Member
Hey Koichi, thanks for replying.
I noticed that on the website I linked, that in the FAQ section, one of the questions is "is the Warsaw Uprising and the Warsaw Ghetto uprising the same thing?" That makes me feel a bit better, knowing that I'm not the first or the last to confuse the two.
Besides the pics, there was a ton of useful info about the battle - I learned that the Poles captured two Panther tanks and actually used them aginst the germans during the fighting, as well as destroyed a number of other german AFV's. Also, the germans used these remotely controlled mini tanks that would roll up to the polish positions...and were then detonated. Brutal, if effective. There was also the 600mm Karl Morser mortar that saw extensive use during the battle - the largest artillery piece of the war, according to the site. Lots of neat little facts like that. There was also this armored german train (with pic) that had turrets mounted on it, and was used to defend the Warsaw train station. Hmmm, I don't seem to remember ever seeing any of these weapons in the German oob...
Anyway, from the sound of it, it could make an interesting set of linked scens, or a single very large scenario.
Later!
I noticed that on the website I linked, that in the FAQ section, one of the questions is "is the Warsaw Uprising and the Warsaw Ghetto uprising the same thing?" That makes me feel a bit better, knowing that I'm not the first or the last to confuse the two.
Besides the pics, there was a ton of useful info about the battle - I learned that the Poles captured two Panther tanks and actually used them aginst the germans during the fighting, as well as destroyed a number of other german AFV's. Also, the germans used these remotely controlled mini tanks that would roll up to the polish positions...and were then detonated. Brutal, if effective. There was also the 600mm Karl Morser mortar that saw extensive use during the battle - the largest artillery piece of the war, according to the site. Lots of neat little facts like that. There was also this armored german train (with pic) that had turrets mounted on it, and was used to defend the Warsaw train station. Hmmm, I don't seem to remember ever seeing any of these weapons in the German oob...
Anyway, from the sound of it, it could make an interesting set of linked scens, or a single very large scenario.
Later!