The Use of the 40LL in 1943.

TimNiesen

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Good to know this errata detail about the 40LL Guns for the first play test Nov 12. Although I never seen the Guns actually used in the three games heretofore played with older versions about 12 years ago. The Italian line usually retreats too quickly in “Battlle of Rome” for German Guns to be deployed off the German trucks. The 40LL and their towing trucks are more likely to be used for their critical victory points than in action. Has anyone who has played the scenario seen them actually used? Tim
 

apbills

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I don't believe there is any official errata for this counter....
I will look through my information since I do not normally put any "Errata" in my rulebook unless it is official. It was awhile ago when I did that, so maybe I slipped up.

EDIT: A quick look results in nothing. I am baffled as to where I got this from. It will take a longer look through all my notes to figure out where this came from. I suspect it is erroneous.
 
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olli

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My source told me that the German Army had an excellent plans for a tungsten base shell for the 50L of the Panzer 3. The curtailment of the Spanish exports were never totally shut off, but simply curtailed. This shell would have penetrated all Russian tanks before 1945. The American government used the Spanish regime’s great need for its food stuffs (cut off by the war in the Med) to pressure Gen. Franco. Eventually the Blue Division was withdrawn from the Eastern Front due to American pressure. Tim
Quote your source for this info to allow all to read it ???
 

Robin Reeve

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My source hates me when I quote him! Tim
He doesn't seem to be serious then.
If he pretends to say historical fact, he has no reason not wanting to be quoted: it is not personal nor secret data.
Otherwise, reporting his statements is just hearsay of personal musings.
 

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If the 40LL gun (lePaK 41, German ordnance note #7) is to be given a HE capability per an errata, there will be a need to clarify the value of the HE shell on the IFT Table as this is a tapered-bore gun where the initial roughly 40mm shell gets squeezed down to a roughly 28mm shell at it exits the muzzle. So the exit size of the shell will constrain the HE filling in the shell. A 40mm shell would give an IFT value of 4, but a 20mm would have an IFT value as low as 1, in the middle a 30mm gun would give an IFT value of 2.
Depending on the HE value assigned, I could see that this might affect the balance of ASL scenario To Clear a Roadblock (https://www.aslscenarioarchive.com/scenario.php?id=56356 ) where German paratroopers face a Partisan force with two of those guns.
Finally, a link to a photo showing the 40LL in the hands of German paratroopers in Rome in 1943. It looks like an enlarged German 37mm ATG as it uses the same carriage and shield. (https://www.bridgemanimages.com/en/noartistknown/wwii-in-italy-1943-armistice-battle-of-roma-german-anti-tank-gun-and-paratroopers/nomedium/asset/2621030 ).
 

STAVKA

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If the 40LL gun (lePaK 41, German ordnance note #7) is to be given a HE capability per an errata, there will be a need to clarify the value of the HE shell on the IFT Table as this is a tapered-bore gun where the initial roughly 40mm shell gets squeezed down to a roughly 28mm shell at it exits the muzzle. So the exit size of the shell will constrain the HE filling in the shell. A 40mm shell would give an IFT value of 4, but a 20mm would have an IFT value as low as 1, in the middle a 30mm gun would give an IFT value of 2.
Depending on the HE value assigned, I could see that this might affect the balance of ASL scenario To Clear a Roadblock (https://www.aslscenarioarchive.com/scenario.php?id=56356 ) where German paratroopers face a Partisan force with two of those guns.
Finally, a link to a photo showing the 40LL in the hands of German paratroopers in Rome in 1943. It looks like an enlarged German 37mm ATG as it uses the same carriage and shield. (https://www.bridgemanimages.com/en/noartistknown/wwii-in-italy-1943-armistice-battle-of-roma-german-anti-tank-gun-and-paratroopers/nomedium/asset/2621030 ).
There is no need for an errata to allow the lePaK 41 firing HE since two rules already mention it can fire HE (and historically it could).

The lower numbered rule C2.21 (An underscored caliber size means it cannot fire HE ammunition) apply that the lePaK 41 counter is a misprint. Since the two higher numbered rules clearly states that it can fire HE.

C4.3 .....The German 28LL and 40LL Guns use the APCR Basic TH# Modification even if firing HE...

Germ Multi-Applicable Ordnance Notes (for the lePaK 41)

A. Due to the design of its armor piercing projectile, this gun uses the APCR To Kill Table and Range modifiers for its To Kill DR vs AFV, unless using HE. In addition, it always uses the Basic TH# Modification (C4.3) for its To Hit DR--even if it fires HE
 

Tesgora

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My understanding is that the counter for the 40LL says cannot fire HE (underlined caliber) while the ordnance note implies it can fire HE. So until I get an official MMP answer I cannot decide which is wrong between the counter or the ordnance note, which are both official MMP sources; the ordering of the rules you cite does not clarify that point in my mind. If MMP has resolved the issue please point me to the answer. Until then my only option is to rely on Table C7.32 and the rule C8.31 for HE equivalency. The latter says that a AP/APCR shot of more than 37mm gives a HE equivalency of 2 which I found acceptable for the size of the shell emerging from that tapered bore gun.
 

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STAVKA

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My understanding is that the counter for the 40LL says cannot fire HE (underlined caliber) while the ordnance note implies it can fire HE. So until I get an official MMP answer I cannot decide which is wrong between the counter or the ordnance note, which are both official MMP sources; the ordering of the rules you cite does not clarify that point in my mind. If MMP has resolved the issue please point me to the answer. Until then my only option is to rely on Table C7.32 and the rule C8.31 for HE equivalency. The latter says that a AP/APCR shot of more than 37mm gives a HE equivalency of 2 which I found acceptable for the size of the shell emerging from that tapered bore gun.
A fragmetion HE 28mm shell in highspeed velocity is more dangerous than a HE 37mm shell with a lower velocity.

And not allowing Residual FP or using the area target type when fire lePaK 41, of course it had HE the many sources claims it was used in during practice and vs soft targets and even the ASL rules claims HE may be fired.
 

STAVKA

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Här finns länk på instruktions häftet, för den tyska 2-2-8 Crew, till 4.2cm PaK 41.

https://www.aboutww2militaria.com/fallschirmjager-anti-tank-gun-4-2-cm-pak-41-shooting-instruction.html

Ett utdrag ur instruktionshäftet Översättning är knacklig, men även förstålig på tyska. Som bekräftar att lePak 41 hade spränggranter och inte bara Panzar brytande granat patroner.

6. Die panzerbrechende Munition der 4.2 cm Pak 41 ist die Hartkerngranate (HK). Verwendung bis 800 m Entfernung.

Sprenggranate (Sp) können erzielen behindernde Wirkung beim beschuss von waffenblenden. Sehschlitzen und Optik, vernichtende Wirkung bei gunstigen treffern auf die Motorentluftung am Heck (Inbrandschiessen).

7. Muntion:

HK = 4.2 cm Pzgr. Patr. 41

Sp = eingefuhrte Sprgr. Patr

6. The armor-piercing ammunition of the 4.2 cm Pak 41 is the hard core grenade (HK). Use up to 800 m distance.

Explosive grenade (Sp) can achieve obstructive effect when shelling weapon shields.

Visual slits and optics, devastating effect on favorable hits on the engine venting at the rear (incendiary shooting).

7. Ammo:

HK = 4.2 cm Pzgr.Patr.41

Sp = imported Sprgr.Patr
 

FMFCB

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Your screenshot is about the 28mm sPzB 41. It's counter does not have underscored calibur size. I haven't seen any info. on HE or fragmentation for the 40LL gun. Do you have a source?
 
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Juan SantaX

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Who said that Franco did not traded goods with NAZI Germany in 1943/1944?

Franco sent to Germany Tungsten even after the April 29 1944 Franco-USA-Uk treaty not to sell it anymore... [Edit: it was allowed to sell 40 tons a month, but they send more than that]

The trade (weapons against raw materials) ended in June-July 1944 because it was really difficult to send and receive goods by train. Just for the record, in 1943 Franco got a 10 Stug III (one still running nowadays), 25 PzIV, 150 Soviet 122mm guns, a few Me109, He 111, Ju 88, a few Torpedo Boats, etc... All paid by raw materials, and of course Tungsten.
 
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apbills

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I am the one who mentioned errata, and can not find where I got that information from. I suspect I am wrong, and no one should play that there is an errata unless something is found. I will continue to look for what prompted me to include that information, although it is low on my priorities.

As for Note A, it is for both the 28LL and the 40LL guns and does not mean the no HE restriction of an underlined MA on the counter is somehow granted the capability by the note that applies to both a gun with no underline and one with an underline. If you look at the actual note you see that it does not say anything about having HE, rather it just says indicates what TK table and modifiers to use with APCR and what TH modifications to use when firing anything. To try and hang your hat on the wording as proof HE is available for the 40LL gun in ASL is a severe bastardization of English language/grammar comprehension.

"Due to the design of its armor piercing projectile, this gun uses the APCR To Kill Table and Range modifiers for its To Kill DR vs. AFV, unless using HE. In addition, it always uses the Basic TH# Modification (C4.3) for its To Hit DR - even if it fires HE-and is not subject to APCR Depletion Numbers."
 

King Scott II

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Eventually the Blue Division was withdrawn from the Eastern Front due to American pressure.
As an interesting side note, when I was in the Brotherhood of the Blue Division in Madrid, I was told by my guide that many of the Blue Division soldiers then joined the SS and were present during the Battle of Berlin. Not sure how accurate that the claim is, but that is what he stated.

Semper Fi!
Scott
 

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