The ULTIMATE Death Star Challenge

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,377
Reaction score
10,271
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
No +2 for Captured use. A21.12 "Captured non-ordnance weapons are only penalised by the decrease in their breakdown number and ROF."
Damn! I had it right first and then 'corrected' it wrongly...
And I found another mistake. Instead of the M3 (MMG) halftrack, we can use a M3 (HMG) halftrack. According to the diagram below, I think the latter could use all three MGs for 4+6+6 = 20.

13268

So here we go again.

For a Level 2 Building with Ground, 1st, and 2nd Level:

34 Heroes with 17 HMG for 119FP @ -34 DRM
34 Heroes with 17 HMG for 119FP @ -34 DRM
34 Heroes with 17 HMG for 119FP @ -34 DRM

In Bypass a SPW 251/1 halftrtrack with a 3FP AAMG plus loaded with 5x Hero, 5x LMG, 1x 10-3 Leader using up 15 out of 15 available PP for another 15FP totalling 18FP @ -3

This would yield a grand total of 375FP @ -105.


With Captured Use weaponry:

34 Heroes with 17 captured .50 Cals for 136FP @ -34 DRM
34 Heroes with 17 captured .50 Cals for 136FP @ -34 DRM
34 Heroes with 17 captured .50 Cals for 136FP @ -34 DRM

In Bypass a captured US M3 (HMG) halftrtrack firing through its rear target facing for 20FP plus loaded with 4x Hero, 4x LMG, 1x 10-3 Leader using up 9 out of 10 available PP for another 12FP totalling 32FP @ -3

This would yield a grand total of 440FP @ -105.

Anyone out there who can 'up' it?

von Marwitz
 
Last edited:

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,732
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
For a Level 2 Building with Ground, 1st, and 2nd Level:

34 Heroes with 17 HMG for 119FP @ -34 DRM
34 Heroes with 17 HMG for 119FP @ -34 DRM
34 Heroes with 17 HMG for 119FP @ -34 DRM

In Bypass a SPW 251/1 halftrtrack with a 3FP AAMG plus loaded with 5x Hero, 5x LMG, 1x 10-3 Leader using up 15 out of 15 available PP for another 15FP totalling 18FP @ -3
Per A10.7 "likewise a leader cannot affect affect units at a different level (2.8)". Unless there is a 10-3 in every level, the -3 Leadership DRM is void.

My 2nd last post illustrated that beyond 1 level/location in a hex, an all Hero group wins out.

Maybe I'm missing something, but couldn't a 15 pp vehicle could take 7 Heroes (7pp), 7 LMG (7pp) and a Leader (1 pp).
 
Last edited:

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,377
Reaction score
10,271
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
All right, next try:

For a Level 2 Building with Ground, 1st, and 2nd Level:

33 Heroes and a 10-3 with 17 HMG for 119FP @ -34 DRM
33 Heroes and a 10-3 with 17 HMG for 119FP @ -34 DRM
33 Heroes and a 10-3 with 17 HMG for 119FP @ -34 DRM

In Bypass a SPW 251/1 halftrtrack with a 3FP AAMG plus loaded with 5x Hero, 5x LMG, 1x 10-3 Leader using up 15 out of 15 available PP for another 15FP totalling 18FP @ -3. Note that we need one 10-3 on every level to secure his -3 DRM.

This would yield a grand total of 375FP @ -105.


With Captured Use weaponry:

33 Heroes and a 10-3 with 17 captured .50 Cals for 136FP @ -34 DRM
33 Heroes and a 10-3 with 17 captured .50 Cals for 136FP @ -34 DRM
33 Heroes and a 10-3 with 17 captured .50 Cals for 136FP @ -34 DRM

In Bypass a captured US M3 (HMG) halftrtrack firing through its rear target facing for 20FP plus loaded with 4x Hero, 4x LMG, 1x 10-3 Leader using up 9 out of 10 available PP for another 12FP totalling 32FP @ -3

This would yield a grand total of 440FP @ -105.

Anyone out there who can 'up' it?

von Marwitz
 

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,733
Reaction score
2,765
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
Anyone out there who can 'up' it?
Anyone there who can provide an answer only using the printed counter-mix, assuming all core modules are in play, but only the counters provided in a single copy of each - excluding TPP, DASL, ASLSK and HASL? Stringing 99 heroes together isn't going to be possible, but finding the right mix of Allied troops while also finding the requisite number of machine guns would be a challenge.
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,377
Reaction score
10,271
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
Anyone there who can provide an answer only using the printed counter-mix, assuming all core modules are in play, but only the counters provided in a single copy of each - excluding TPP, DASL, ASLSK and HASL? Stringing 99 heroes together isn't going to be possible, but finding the right mix of Allied troops while also finding the requisite number of machine guns would be a challenge.
Just ask Ollie with his wall of RAACO. He'll provide the necessary counters in a wink.

But let's first solve the ongoing challenge before we move on to the next... ;)
We're not done yet. I have one thing up my sleeve that can still 'up' it.

von Marwitz
 

dlazov

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Messages
7,991
Reaction score
1,377
Location
Toledo, Ohio
First name
Don
Country
llUnited States
But seriously when has there ever been more than 5 hero’s on any AH/MMP boards?

I have had 6-7 hero’s in RB or in CHs Berlin CG.
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,377
Reaction score
10,271
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
But seriously when has there ever been more than 5 hero’s on any AH/MMP boards?

I have had 6-7 hero’s in RB or in CHs Berlin CG.
If you are seriously asking a serious question on the realism of the topic here, then the situation is hopeless but not serious.

von Marwitz
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,732
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
All right, next try:

For a Level 2 Building with Ground, 1st, and 2nd Level:

33 Heroes and a 10-3 with 17 HMG for 119FP @ -34 DRM
33 Heroes and a 10-3 with 17 HMG for 119FP @ -34 DRM
33 Heroes and a 10-3 with 17 HMG for 119FP @ -34 DRM

In Bypass a SPW 251/1 halftrtrack with a 3FP AAMG plus loaded with 5x Hero, 5x LMG, 1x 10-3 Leader using up 15 out of 15 available PP for another 15FP totalling 18FP @ -3. Note that we need one 10-3 on every level to secure his -3 DRM.

This would yield a grand total of 375FP @ -105.
The 33 Heroes with a 10-3 get you -3 (10-3), 16 pairs 16*-2 = -32 and the single 0 for a total DRM of -35 if only 1 Location/Level.

Furthermore while Hero's DRMs accumulate across multiple Levels, the Leadership doesn't, only the lowest or none applies. So 3 levels will give you 48 pairs for -96, 3 singles for 0 and 1 Leadership DRM of -3 (despite using 3 10-3s), totalling -99.

So forget the leaders for more than one level/location. 34 Heroes gets you 17 pairs for -34 for a single level. 3 levels gets you the full -102 DRM. With/without a leader you get the same FP, but for more than one location "all Heroes" wins in DRMs.

I still think you could fit more than 5 Heroes and LMGs in the 251/1, I believe 7 for 24 FP from the 251/1.

So for German only, 3* 119 FP + 24 FP = 381. Using a 10-3 in each location won't change the FP, but will reduce the DRM magnitude from -102 to -99.
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,377
Reaction score
10,271
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
The 33 Heroes with a 10-3 get you -3 (10-3), 16 pairs 16*-2 = -32 and the single 0 for a total DRM of -35 if only 1 Location/Level.

Furthermore while Hero's DRMs accumulate across multiple Levels, the Leadership doesn't, only the lowest or none applies. So 3 levels will give you 48 pairs for -96, 3 singles for 0 and 1 Leadership DRM of -3 (despite using 3 10-3s), totalling -99.

So forget the leaders for more than one level/location. 34 Heroes gets you 17 pairs for -34 for a single level. 3 levels gets you the full -102 DRM. With/without a leader you get the same FP, but for more than one location "all Heroes" wins in DRMs.

I still think you could fit more than 5 Heroes and LMGs in the 251/1, I believe 7 for 24 FP from the 251/1.

So for German only, 3* 119 FP + 24 FP = 381. Using a 10-3 in each location won't change the FP, but will reduce the DRM magnitude from -102 to -99.

Correct about the German halftrack. I can fit a combo of 14 effective Heroes/LMG in there.

Well, here comes my final say:

For a Level 2 Building with Ground, 1st, and 2nd Level:

34 Heroes with 17 HMG for 119FP @ -34 DRM
34 Heroes with 17 HMG for 119FP @ -34 DRM
34 Heroes with 17 HMG for 119FP @ -34 DRM

In Bypass a SPW 251/1 halftrtrack with a 3FP AAMG plus loaded with 7x Hero, 7x LMG, using up 14 out of 15 available PP for another 21FP totalling 24FP.

This would yield a grand total of 381FP @ -102.


With Captured Use weaponry:

34 Heroes with 17 captured .50 Cals for 136FP @ -34 DRM
34 Heroes with 17 captured .50 Cals for 136FP @ -34 DRM
34 Heroes with 17 captured .50 Cals for 136FP @ -34 DRM

In Bypass a captured US M3 (HMG) halftrtrack firing through its rear target facing for 20FP plus loaded with 5x Hero, 5x LMG, using up 10 out of 10 available PP for another 15FP totalling 35FP.

This would yield a grand total of 443FP @ -102.

My idea to yet 'up' it was to add a SMC Rider to the halftracks per

"D6.2 RIDERS: Riders are Personnel being transported on the outside of an AFV (or Cavalry or motorcyclists). AFV Riders cannot be used until 1942—and even then only by the Russians. In 1943 and thereafter, all nationalities may use Riders. Riders are limited to tanks (not tankettes), TD, SPA, SPAA, Carriers (limited capacity; 6.81), and Assault Guns. Rider capacity is limited to a maximum of 14 PP (as per 6.1); within those timeframes a vehicle not otherwise granted Rider capability can carry one SMC as a Rider and the two PP he possesses. See A5.5 for equivalents. Rider PP cannot be used to satisfy the ammo PP reduction (C10.13) of any Gun that requires a T# (C10.1) to be transported; therefore, a dm 76-82mm mortar is transported by Riders at its normal five PP cost."

Thus, if the 10-3s would have made a difference, one of them could have been placed as a Rider on the US halftrack laden so far with only 4x Hero & 4x LMG, allowing for a fifth Hero+LMG combo as Passenger to use up the 9th and 10th PP while the 10-3 could have directed everything as a Rider. Placing an extra Hero as a Rider does not change anything because Riders may not use SW and only fire within their normal range.

In case the challenge would have been set at range 4 (and not 6), then the extra Hero Rider with his LMG would have added 1.5FP (halved for being a Rider) and an extra -1 Heroic DRM.


So it seems that the final score is settled at

443FP @ -102.


von Marwitz
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,732
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
While I'm more a history nerd (I really, really enjoy translating history into ASL) than player, the ex-programmer in me did really enjoy that. Never mind that I got many things wrong (like initially forgetting that Hero DRMs accumulate over many locations), the challenge did make my head spin in a vaguely pleasant way.

So thank you for this thread.

Oh, for those who wonder about how many ASL kits would be required, I would not be surprised if CH was setting up the graphics for such counter sheets as I type.
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,588
Reaction score
5,080
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
While I'm more a history nerd (I really, really enjoy translating history into ASL) than player, the ex-programmer in me did really enjoy that. Never mind that I got many things wrong (like initially forgetting that Hero DRMs accumulate over many locations), the challenge did make my head spin in a vaguely pleasant way.

So thank you for this thread.

Oh, for those who wonder about how many ASL kits would be required, I would not be surprised if CH was setting up the graphics for such counter sheets as I type.
I think these thought games are a great way to revisit the rules, even rules you think you know can reveal some surprises. Once again a very nice thread.

Paul, attrition had us down to 9 kitties but we adopted another one the day after Christmas from an elderly woman Deborah knows. Jessie is a 2 year old tortoise shell and she is a big girl. Hope yours are all well.
 

WuWei

Elder Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
1,174
Reaction score
930
Location
Germany
First name
Tobias
Country
llGermany
I suggest adding a second ht in bypass on the other side of the building.
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,732
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
I think these thought games are a great way to revisit the rules, even rules you think you know can reveal some surprises. Once again a very nice thread.

Paul, attrition had us down to 9 kitties but we adopted another one the day after Christmas from an elderly woman Deborah knows. Jessie is a 2 year old tortoise shell and she is a big girl. Hope yours are all well.
Quite true. For me it was a refresher course/reminder on Heroes and the differences with Leaders. It's only rarely you can get to explore some of the subtleties of different rules' interactions. I did get a kick out of copping to the ∞ FP, -∞ DRM wheeze, utterly evil but still legal.

Still the same 3 as when we last PMed. Comet 12y9m, Clovis 11y10m and Halo 10y1m, all doing well.
 

Peter Quant

Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2012
Messages
83
Reaction score
11
Location
Amsterdam
Country
llNetherlands
Arguably, this wold prevent any fire from getting out to the range of six hexes
An infinity of counters would create an infinitely large black hole, so that the target at six hexes remove would fall below the black hole's event horizon, thus making it impossible for us outsiders to observe any fire reaching the target, effectively making this a non-entry.
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,732
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
In the case of an infinite black hole all observers would be inside the event horizon.
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,377
Reaction score
10,271
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
While I'm more a history nerd (I really, really enjoy translating history into ASL) than player, the ex-programmer in me did really enjoy that. Never mind that I got many things wrong (like initially forgetting that Hero DRMs accumulate over many locations), the challenge did make my head spin in a vaguely pleasant way.

So thank you for this thread.

Oh, for those who wonder about how many ASL kits would be required, I would not be surprised if CH was setting up the graphics for such counter sheets as I type.
Thank you. In fact, this was more fun and mind-boggling than I had anticipated. I did not realize that two Heroes fire a MG at -2 either, liked the thought about the Climbers, the infinite overstacking, and - of course - the 6-range Encirclement. I was not aware of before that Climbers have a lowered IPC, Commandos have a lower chance of Falling, was reminded that Scaling and Climbing are two differnt beasts, had forgotten, that Riders may not fire SW, and that the US M3 (MMG/HMG) halftracks are actually able to bring their entire firepower to bear if they fire through their rear target facing.

Who woulda thunk?

von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,377
Reaction score
10,271
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
Cool map configuration... What scenario is it?
The scenario title is as long as the stack is high - it's called:

"Major von Schoff, disguised as an American of "Operation Greif", attempts to steal from Oberst von Marwitz a bottle of Château Lafite-Rothschild, but is 'mistaken' for the enemy"

Scenario length is one half-turn.

The scenario is recommended for tournament play.
It is especially suited for the second round of the day, after the morning scenario "Flying Turrets" unexpectedly took until 2400h at night and people just want to get over with to socialize and have a beer or two.


13274

von Marwitz
 
Top