The ULTIMATE Death Star Challenge

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,358
Reaction score
10,207
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
You all might remember having fired some truly evil shot at your hapless opponent like a 36 -3 on the IFT.

But we could do better than that, couldn't we?

So here is the ULTIMATE Death Star Challenge:

What is the maximum amount of Firepower with the most advantageous own DRM that a German player could theoretically exert within the limits of the ASL rules without overstacking at the range of 6 hexes originating from a single hex firing from an arbitrary terrain encountered on any standard ASL geo board by AH/MMP?

Note:
Three Edits in red for clarification had to be made to the challenge.

Overstacking had to be eliminated becaue Paul Weir pointed out that two Heroes manning a MG will get a -2 DRM while doing so and by this mechanism effectively more than eliminate any Overstacking penalty additional heroes would cause and thus allow for ∞ FP, -∞ DRM. He also pointed out, that this would eventually create a black hole. Arguably, this wold prevent any fire from getting out to the range of six hexes, but the laws of non-ASL physics weren't part of the challenge. So by the original wording of the challenge, the winning answer by Mr. Weir was ∞ FP, -∞ DRM.

That same Mr. Weir came up with another most devious idea, stating that fire at the range from 6 hexes could, within the bounds of the original wording of the challenge, originate from a circle of six hexes around the target hex. Brilliant! But I had to eliminate this, too, and limit the fire to originate from a single hex.

As Swiftandsure brought in the idea of Climbers adding to the FP total, this brings up the question of the height of the Cliffs. For that reason, I edited the wording of the original challenge for a third time limiting the 'standard geo boards' to those by AH/MMP.

von Marwitz
 
Last edited:

A_T_Great

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2011
Messages
804
Reaction score
578
Location
Maine
Country
llUnited States
That would be 51 FP with a -6 DRM Three squads, any type firing six HMGs for 42FP directed by a 10-3 Leader and 3 heroes firing an LMG a piece.
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,358
Reaction score
10,207
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
That would be 51 FP with a -6 DRM Three squads, any type firing six HMGs for 42FP directed by a 10-3 Leader and 3 heroes firing an LMG a piece.
"A15.23 WEAPONS USE: A hero may use a non-MG SW as if he were a leader but applies a -1 DRM to its To Hit or IFT DR. In addition, a hero uses a MG (at full FP) or other SW normally requiring two men to fire by adding +1 to its To Hit or IFT DR as appropriate (which is negated by the heroic DRM). ..."

If the Heroes fire LMGs, their heroic DRM is effectively voided, so it would not be a -6 shot. ;)

Besides, anyone upping it beyond 51FP?

von Marwitz
 

A_T_Great

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2011
Messages
804
Reaction score
578
Location
Maine
Country
llUnited States
"A15.23 WEAPONS USE: A hero may use a non-MG SW as if he were a leader but applies a -1 DRM to its To Hit or IFT DR. In addition, a hero uses a MG (at full FP) or other SW normally requiring two men to fire by adding +1 to its To Hit or IFT DR as appropriate (which is negated by the heroic DRM). ..."

If the Heroes fire LMGs, their heroic DRM is effectively voided, so it would not be a -6 shot. ;)

Besides, anyone upping it beyond 51FP?

von Marwitz
That'll teach me to read more carefully! OK 64 -5 (The heroes fire HMGs instead.)
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,732
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
Here are my thoughts:

A (single) Hero firing a HMG has a nett DRM of 0 (-1 hero, +1 for MG at full FP) and 7 FP, as pointed out above.

Per A9.12 2 SMC (includes both Leaders and Heroes) may fire a MG at full FP and per A15.23 "a hero uses" penalty of +1 is no longer applicable. So 2 Heroes and a HMG = DRM -2, FP 7.

3 squad stacking equivalent = 30 Heroes: 105 FP with a DRM of -30.

Toss in a 10-3 leader and you get 105 FP, -33 DRM. And that's per Location. Multiple Locations just increase the FP, not the DRM.

At 6 hexes range there are 36 possible firing hexes. So if only single locations per hex you are sadly limited to 3780 FP, -33 DRM. The down part is that you need 36 10-3 leaders, 1080 Heroes and 540 HMG. Almost sounds like the title of a Martial Arts film.

Then there is the question of overstacking. A squad equivalent (FRU) incurs a +1 DRM but 10 Heroes + 5 HMG have a DRM of -10, so overstacked "Hero squads" still gain 35 FP and a nett -9 DRM.

In theory you can have Infinite FP and negative Infinite DRM from any one Location. Oh, multiply the infinite FP by 36 for your hexagonal wall of death.

However I'll go with 105 FP, -33 DRM with the caveat that ASL ignores inherent/MG FP above 36.
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,358
Reaction score
10,207
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
3 squads w/ 6 x HMG = 42 FP
3 heroes w/ 3 x HMG = 21 FP
SdKfz 251 sMG = 7FP (HT FG)
HT Passenger with LMG = 3 FP
Directed by 10-3 = -3 DRM
Target FFMO/FFNAM = -2 DRM

73 FP at -5 DRM
Good idea of adding in a halftrack and passengers!

FFMO/FFNAM would cannot be part of the equation, because per the challenge it must be 'own' modifiers.

von Marwitz
 

The Purist

Elder Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
2,917
Reaction score
1,480
Location
In my castle by the sea, Trochu, AB
First name
Gerry
Country
llCanada
Couldn't you use 3 more heroes with 2 HMG adding an additional -1 and 14 FP

Then add the HT FG above for 10 more FP

Thus 129 FP with -34 DRM from a single hex
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,358
Reaction score
10,207
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
Per A9.12 2 SMC (includes both Leaders and Heroes) may fire a MG at full FP and per A15.23 "a hero uses" penalty of +1 is no longer applicable. So 2 Heroes and a HMG = DRM -2, FP 7.
I was thinking about two Heroes firing MGs as well and wondering about the modifier they would have when doing so. Your idea is interesting in itself if legal (and of course highly valid for the challenge).

3 squad stacking equivalent = 30 Heroes: 105 FP with a DRM of -30.
You would not be overstacked with regard to Infantry per Location if you add up to 4 SMC I think.

Toss in a 10-3 leader and you get 105 FP, -33 DRM. And that's per Location. Multiple Locations just increase the FP, not the DRM.
Well, but possibly Heroes could add their modifier if part of Multi-Location FGs?

At 6 hexes range there are 36 possible firing hexes. So if only single locations per hex you are sadly limited to 3780 FP, -33 DRM. The down part is that you need 36 10-3 leaders, 1080 Heroes and 540 HMG. Almost sounds like the title of a Martial Arts film.
Devious thought that never crossed my mind!! I have clarified the conditions of the challenge in the OP defining that the fire has to originate from a single hex.

Then there is the question of overstacking. A squad equivalent (FRU) incurs a +1 DRM but 10 Heroes + 5 HMG have a DRM of -10, so overstacked "Hero squads" still gain 35 FP and a nett -9 DRM.

In theory you can have Infinite FP and negative Infinite DRM from any one Location. Oh, multiply the infinite FP by 36 for your hexagonal wall of death.
If your assumption of 2 Heroes being allowed to fire a HMG with a -2 DRM is legal, then, you could be correct about negative infinite DRM and Infinite FP. But I am not sure about that and looking forward to hearing about Klas Malmström's or any other rules God's thought about it.

However I'll go with 105 FP, -33 DRM with the caveat that ASL ignores inherent/MG FP above 36.
This could be topped by a friendly vehicle in Bypass adding to the total of the FG.

von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,358
Reaction score
10,207
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
Couldn't you use 3 more heroes with 2 HMG adding an additional -1 and 14 FP

Then add the HT FG above for 10 more FP

Thus 129 FP with -34 DRM from a single hex
Standard terrain encountered in a single hex on geo-boards could have multiple locations, so this could be topped.
And what if you load a halftrack with a combination of Heroes with LMG?

von Marwitz
 
Last edited:

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
11,335
Reaction score
5,071
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
What ever the winner comes up with, I claim victory by adding an additional -1 by giving the target a Flamethrower. Me for the win. -- jim
 

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
11,335
Reaction score
5,071
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
Also, I double the Firepower they come up with by placing a +3+5+7 Pillbox in the same hex effectively doubling the Locations and remaining within the rules as amended. -- jim
 

The Purist

Elder Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
2,917
Reaction score
1,480
Location
In my castle by the sea, Trochu, AB
First name
Gerry
Country
llCanada
Hmmm,...

Level 3 bldg. with roof top and a HT in bypass so the target hex is in the bypass VCA would be...

<,hzubb-zubb-zubb,... carry the 2 and then,...hzubb-zubb-zubb,... divide by the square root of pi,...hzubb-zubb-zubb,... add 42 on Tuesdays,... hzubb-zubb-zubb,...dived by two if an odd numbered date or the third week in January,....hzubb-zubb-zubb-zubb>>

Let's seeeeeee,...

119 FP per level (4) at -34 = 476 FP with - 136 DRM

Plus a SdKfz sMG w HS Passenger equiv of 4 heros firing 3 LMG =16 FP and a -1 DRM <Theoretically a second HT could also be in the hex and in the bypass VCA to add another 16 FP but the overstack penalty would be +1 DRM

Sooooo,.... 492 FP w/ -137 DRM (??)) <or 508 FP w/ -136 DRM>

My last kick at this cat.
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,732
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
You would not be overstacked with regard to Infantry per Location if you add up to 4 SMC I think.
<snip>
Well, but possibly Heroes could add their modifier if part of Multi-Location FGs?
OK, good point, add 14 FP and a -4 DRM to get to 119 FP and -37 DRM.

You're quite right, Hero DRMs apply across a multi location FG, unlike Leaders. So 4284 FP, -1227 DRM (-34*36 - 3) for the 36 hex version.

I'll ignore vehicle(s) for the moment.

My ∞ FP, -∞ DRM beats all other if only because building an ∞ stack of physical counters will create a black hole at some point in the stacking (I'd like to see the tweezers that would have to be used). VASL does not solve the problem as you will still need infinite memory (physical chips), thus also a black hole. A black hole overrides any ASL rule interpretation, ASL god or not.

<mike drop>
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,468
Reaction score
4,995
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
Don't you just love this kind of stuff? As I posted in another thread thinking about ASL can be as much fun as playing it.
 
Top