The real question to answer about CM:BN (poll included)

What "extras" will the Deluxe version of CM:BN release with? (multiple choice)

  • Miniature tank

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Miniature soldier

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Coupon for $ off module purchase

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Free copy of CM:BO

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Tank print

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • CM:BB Gamer's Guide

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    10

thewood

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The landscape has changed since CMBO 10 years ago, but the landscape has hardly changed at all since CMSF. The first week of CMSF, there was so much discussion going on around the web that I couldn't keep up with it. Once people realized how screwed up CMSF was, it tapered off. But that took at least a month or so.

I think what has changed somewhat is CMSF's botched release might have created a "ho hum" factor for people that really weren't motivated to care.

Let's face it, CMSF's release turned a lot of people off of the new engine. Those types of people aren't clamoring to get at CMBN. A lot left the BFC world thinking not good thoughts and didn't really follow the development of CMSF. Maybe down the road they will try CMBN, but they probably won't do it until some real buzz starts outside the BFC forums.
 
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Redwolf

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The lack of reviews is a feature, not a bug.

With CMSF the reviewers were making fools out of themselves waiving off an obviously broken game. To a large part because they tested pre-release and assumed or were told that things will be fixed by release.

The way that it goes now there will be some buzz about CMBN, because without doubt it is better than the skeptical people expected. With buzz comes attention, and the reviewers all have websites that need hits. So they will pick it up later, and that will be a good thing.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Let's face it, CMSF's release turned a lot of people off of the new engine. Those types of people aren't clamoring to get at CMBN. A lot left the BFC world thinking not good thoughts and didn't really follow the development of CMSF. Maybe down the road they will try CMBN, but they probably won't do it until some real buzz starts outside the BFC forums.
There was talk along those lines here but a lot of people caved and bought the game anyway.

I don't disagree that what you say seems reasonable; I'm not sure there is much evidence to support it. I do see a substantial amount of log-in names at the BFC forum with membership dates from 1999 and 2000 now that were not active in the CM:SF forums, whom I presume have "returned to the fold" despite the lack of buzz, as you say.

It seems like a rich get richer, poor get poorer situation as far as that goes. Outfits like EA and Sony can advertise NHL for the PC and Playstation on prime time television, while small indie companies doing niche games don't even have access to magazines anymore because for the most part, they are out of print.

I suspect the buzz you are referring to is sites like this, but our traffic has remained steady for the last couple of years. Maybe I should have kept stats, but I honestly don't navel-gaze so it never occurred to me to do so. It seemed to me we got a little bit busier just after the demo, thanks I think to Leto and Tanker who seemed to perk up, and a couple of new accounts, and some revived interest among persons we haven't seen in awhile or before like batou, BlitzCanuck, etc. The BFC forum is definitely much more active.

If you mean "positive" buzz, then perhaps you are closer to the mark. We've talked about how crucial it is for this release to go well, and I certainly agreed then and agree now. I thought the pre-release PR was about as good as BFC is capable of doing, if you'll allow me to damn with faint praise. The product is now left to speak for itself.

I'll give you that the forum conversation here is not singing praises, but no one would expect that here. I liken us to the Senate - a chamber of sober second thought. The BFC forum I haven't read enough to form an opinion, but I've noted at the least the thread titles and my impression - which is wholly subjective - is that they are - as you suggest - tentative there as well. Certainly some fans falling down with words of praise and thanks. But also the usual questions and queries.

I have not, significantly, seen any major "this is broken" posts. You mentioned the reaction to the memory leak topic. That may be the biggest indicator that Elvis is right about how thick the ice truly is. These things shift, but right now, I think the people who never played with CM:SF are going to just sit back and enjoy the visuals. Hell, I did when CM:SF came out.

I'll be interested to see how the honeymoon goes in a couple of months when the scenarios are all played and the designers are all struggling to meet the demand for new stuff, now that the really good designs can't be thrown together in a weekend. I did not come to my Uncanny Valley realization in a week or even a month. This story is only beginning.
 
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Elvis

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Maybe, but why pour rock salt on the ice, while holding a blowtorch to it?
Are you saying you consider the plastic sides of the box to be the equavilant of thowing rock salt and having a blow torch on the "ice of public goodwill"?
 

Michael Dorosh

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The landscape has changed since CMBO 10 years ago, but the landscape has hardly changed at all since CMSF. The first week of CMSF, there was so much discussion going on around the web that I couldn't keep up with it. Once people realized how screwed up CMSF was, it tapered off. But that took at least a month or so.

I think what has changed somewhat is CMSF's botched release might have created a "ho hum" factor for people that really weren't motivated to care.
On rereading this, something else strikes me. We talked a bit about 'must-have' games and how few titles there are that evoke that feeling anymore. Lack of conversation doesn't mean a bad game, it may simply mean that it is good, but no one feels inclined to discuss it much. Like you say - ho-hum. I felt that way about BULL RUN. I bought it, installed it, ran through it once, was impressed - and never touched it again. Was just more of the same for me.

You mention CM:SF generating lots of discussion - well, you hit the nail on the head, it was the release state (patching to 1.01 on release day was unfortunate). The reviews didn't help - Tom Chick et al. I think the eagerness to review it though was probably related to the subject matter, which in hindsight seems more clever than it did at the time.

It's not a landmark anniversary of D-Day so I can see a major "so-what" to another game about Normandy in May 2011 hitting the internet (not even store shelves).

So I agree with the ho-hum, but I think memories are short as far as CM:SF - I am willing to bet many of the new fans don't really care about that and with a full demo available to them, even if they do - I can't see it mattering much.

The ho-hum may simply be "yeah, it's good, so what."
 

Elvis

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I don't disagree that what you say seems reasonable; I'm not sure there is much evidence to support it. I do see a substantial amount of log-in names at the BFC forum with membership dates from 1999 and 2000 now that were not active in the CM:SF forums, whom I presume have "returned to the fold" despite the lack of buzz, as you say.
Pretty much where my first thoughts went when dalem first said that about thin ice. I get zero sense of that on the BFC, on Dosomefink it looks like the ones who wanted to see the demo first are digging it.Here the ones who essentially swore a blood oath against BFC are the only ones still beating the thin ice drum. There have been a couple here who just didn't dig it but their lack of digging it had nothing to do with any ill feeling regarding BFC. As far as I can tell most of them have had a problem learning or dealing with the UI. As Dorosh alludes to, if there is any barometer that would indicate bad feelings affecting the CMBN reception if would be the presence, or lack of presence, of the old timers. They were the ones that were "chased away", right? It looks more and more like their absence during CMSF was the era not Steve being mean to a couple of guys.

Since I only go to those three sites if someone has a link to a larger pocket of exiles I'd be happy to see it. But right now the "thin ice" theory looks to be in the mind(s) of a very small number of people.
 

Michael Dorosh

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But right now the "thin ice" theory looks to be in the mind(s) of a very small number of people.
So what are your predictions re: mainstream reviews? I mean, what do you think they will say?

That goes for anyone who cares to answer the question - thewood, dalem, Tanker, Jeph, Palantir, anyone else reading at this point.

I honestly don't have a clue, I don't follow the review "sites" enough to know the trends. I don't even know what constitutes a "mainstream review" anymore. It used to be PC Gamer and magazine/website combos like that. I don't use them anymore - if I am really curious I just google the name of the game and add the keyword 'review' and pick the top Google results.

I mean, if I want to see a movie, and it is a first run, I will read my local newspaper review; older titles, maybe I will look it up on IMDb, click on Roger Ebert or DVD Verdict, which are my favourite sites. You get to find your favourite reviewer and figure out who has your taste in movies.

I have no idea who has my taste in games, so I couldn't say.

Judging by the couple of softball preview articles that were written, I would expect some favourable reviews. I do know that BFC is at least savvy enough only to link on their own site to the marginal-to-good-or-better reviews of their own stuff. I thought I read that Steve was talking about how in the "old days" he had reviewers come to his house, and now, they don't return emails because there are so few of them in comparison and so little interest in niche stuff.

If I had to guess, I think the "mainstream" (again, whatever that means) reviewers, and let's assume someone with a broader interest than just wargames, would be probably not familiar with the CM:SF development history and might be inclined to - gasp - just review the game on its own merits. Which could have upsides and downsides. How do the QBs measure up without the baggage of knowing people have been waiting for them to be "fixed" for so long? It's hard to stand back and look at this with objective eyes. Do the graphics measure up? Does it suffer for being a World War II theme? May depend on the reviewer. It will definitely be interesting to see. I honestly couldn't predict what anyone would say about it; could be a wide mix of reaction. If I was pressed, I would say positive, tending towards mild enthusiasm rather than rave reviews.

Other opinions?
 

Elvis

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So what are your predictions re: mainstream reviews? I mean, what do you think they will say?

That goes for anyone who cares to answer the question - thewood, dalem, Tanker, Jeph, Palantir, anyone else reading at this point.

I honestly don't have a clue, I don't follow the review "sites" enough to know the trends. I don't even know what constitutes a "mainstream review" anymore. It used to be PC Gamer and magazine/website combos like that. I don't use them anymore - if I am really curious I just google the name of the game and add the keyword 'review' and pick the top Google results.

I mean, if I want to see a movie, and it is a first run, I will read my local newspaper review; older titles, maybe I will look it up on IMDb, click on Roger Ebert or DVD Verdict, which are my favourite sites. You get to find your favourite reviewer and figure out who has your taste in movies.

I have no idea who has my taste in games, so I couldn't say.

Judging by the couple of softball preview articles that were written, I would expect some favourable reviews. I do know that BFC is at least savvy enough only to link on their own site to the marginal-to-good-or-better reviews of their own stuff. I thought I read that Steve was talking about how in the "old days" he had reviewers come to his house, and now, they don't return emails because there are so few of them in comparison and so little interest in niche stuff.

If I had to guess, I think the "mainstream" (again, whatever that means) reviewers, and let's assume someone with a broader interest than just wargames, would be probably not familiar with the CM:SF development history and might be inclined to - gasp - just review the game on its own merits. Which could have upsides and downsides. How do the QBs measure up without the baggage of knowing people have been waiting for them to be "fixed" for so long? It's hard to stand back and look at this with objective eyes. Do the graphics measure up? Does it suffer for being a World War II theme? May depend on the reviewer. It will definitely be interesting to see. I honestly couldn't predict what anyone would say about it; could be a wide mix of reaction. If I was pressed, I would say positive, tending towards mild enthusiasm rather than rave reviews.

Other opinions?
I would think it will be how they are looking at the game and what they are comparing it to. If they are comparing it to a WW2 high end graphic shooter or something then I would guess they will give it a 6 or 7 out of 10. If they are comparing it to similar type games 8 or 9 out of 10.
 

BlitzCanuck

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Other than Bill Trotter at PC Gamer (and he's long gone), there are no reviewers that i'm familiar with enough to predict how they will score it.
Having said that, i suspect overall they will be positive.
That's assuming they didn't preorder the plastic Steelbox..... :)
 

thewood

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I don't think you will many real reviews from the mainstream gaming sites that cover a broad gaming community that includes consoles.

I think you will see a few quick reviews from some more wargame-centric sites, like wargamer.com and the few remaining like that.

There are also the Out of Eight blog-like sites that will most likely do reviews. I think they will compare it to CM1, CMSF, and also talk about it as its own entity.
 

Sgt_Kelly

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Got the box last night.

Not by any stretch of the imagination can it be described as a steel box.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Got the box last night.

Not by any stretch of the imagination can it be described as a steel box.
It the poly count in the tanks included in the game is high enough, you can basically get away with murder, I think.
 

Michael Dorosh

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junk2drive

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If that means you can't read it

News on the steel case front. Just to put this matter to rest, I located a magnet in my home (how many of you have a magnet handy.)

Not only is the case plastic. But it is some cleverly designed type of plastic that attracts a magnet just as if it were metal.

Who woulda thunk it, metal like magnetic plastic. These people at Battlefront must be stopped.
 

Michael Dorosh

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I finally posted my brilliance there; I see it is my first post, but my join date was April 30, 2001. Maybe they will send me a steel case for my ass as a Lurker's Award.
 
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