The real question to answer about CM:BN (poll included)

What "extras" will the Deluxe version of CM:BN release with? (multiple choice)

  • Miniature tank

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Miniature soldier

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Coupon for $ off module purchase

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Free copy of CM:BO

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Tank print

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • CM:BB Gamer's Guide

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    10

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,580
Reaction score
2,493
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
I hope no one is suggesting this was done with malice aforethought. If you look at it from a marketing standpoint - as I attempted to in the very first post - you see a clear choice. Either sell the game straight up, or try and find some "value added" extra. They went with the 'steel box' as a value-added extra. Either they didn't believe that plastic components would be of any signficance, or they were unaware of the existence of same. The question after the fact is how much is it going to bother consumers, and how will BFC address any concerns raised.

Has the makings of a fiasco if hundreds of people decide to be torqued about it and demand refunds. I don't see it happening. But the wrong response can get noses out of joint, too, even to a mild reaction, which is what there has been so far. The beta response quoted earlier is an example. Basically, consumers just want to be heard, even if no one will do anything for them, or if the problem is just a minor one.

I'm sure I'll be happy with mine; it's going on a shelf to look good, not store butter cookies in.

Then again, I bought the LOTRO special edition just so I could get a replica of the One Ring of Power. It now sits in a black cloth bag inside the special edition box, on a shelf. I've resisted all temptations to slip it on my finger, so I never even wore the silly thing. I mean...you just never know what might happen, right?
 

thewood

Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2004
Messages
2,594
Reaction score
12
Location
Boston
Country
llUnited States
To me, this is just one of those things that if you like a company, it's no big deal. If don't like them, you get cranked.

btw, I've been looking for my precisous. Now I know where's it is.
 

junk2drive

Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
897
Reaction score
7
Location
Arizona West Coast
The reason I brought up the cookie tin is that Steve mentioned the price of steel. If a tin the size of a 3 layer birthday cake filled with crappy cookies is around $3.99, how much of that is the tin?

He should not have tried to make a joke (I think his intention) or pass it off as the price of steel being the reason for the situation.

Anyway since DVD sets are sold in tins, if BFC knew about the plastic, they should have described it better before taking orders. Most people won't care but there are always a few...
 

Redwolf

Member # 3665
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
5,113
Reaction score
44
Location
MA, USA
Country
llUnited States
Did anyone put a magnet to the cover? Seems unlikely any iron is involved at all, much less steel.
 

dalem

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
2,298
Reaction score
62
Location
Columbia Heights, MN
Country
llUnited States
There is a point where the distinction between malice, complacency and incompetence becomes irrelevant to the person on the receiving end.
Really. They should know they are on thin ice. It's lazy or stupid or deliberate to advertise a "metal box" vs. a "mostly metal box". End of the world? Not a chance. Typical BFC? Yep.

-dale
 

Elvis

Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
2,918
Reaction score
14
Location
Pennsylvania
Country
llUnited States
Really. They should know they are on thin ice. It's lazy or stupid or deliberate to advertise a "metal box" vs. a "mostly metal box". End of the world? Not a chance. Typical BFC? Yep.

-dale

It could be debated until the cows come home (even though they're not modeled in the game) but I think the ice is a lot thicker than you think it is. At least that is what I am seeing when I look around the 3 spots where I see CM discussed.
 

dalem

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
2,298
Reaction score
62
Location
Columbia Heights, MN
Country
llUnited States
It could be debated until the cows come home (even though they're not modeled in the game) but I think the ice is a lot thicker than you think it is. At least that is what I am seeing when I look around the 3 spots where I see CM discussed.
Wow. 3, huh? That's the kind of statement that, when other people make it, you dismiss out of hand.

-dale
 

thewood

Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2004
Messages
2,594
Reaction score
12
Location
Boston
Country
llUnited States
I think it also points to the serious lack of discussion going on...outside BFC.

Here it is the same 12 or so people. Wargamer has maybe 6 pages of a dozen different people. There is a little discussion at ACG, TheBlitz, a couple other CM1 ladder sites. But I have yet to see any significant discssion yet. And there is very little blog and press coverage.

This in contrast to CMSF and even the Marine module.
 

Elvis

Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
2,918
Reaction score
14
Location
Pennsylvania
Country
llUnited States
********.
Perhaps I should have expanded my thoughts. I mention that I only visit 3 sites that would discuss it not to point out my lock tight position. I mentioned them to point out I was getting my impressions from a smallish pool. Althoough are large part of that pool and why I feel the ice is fairly thick is from BFCs site. Part of the thin ice theory is that old time CM players had been chased away and soured so much on BFC that they have a lot of fence mending to do. Cruising through the sites I mention that seems to be a position held here. There are even a couple of threads on the BFC forum about the return of old timers. Add to it people I wouldn't imagine doing a thing until they had touched the demo preordering. There are only a couple of guys here, as far as I can tell, that woulnt buy the game or play the demo based on BFC being on thin ice with them. So by all accounts, that I have seen, the number of people who give a hoot if Steve was mean to somebody 4 years ago and it is affecting their decisions seems to be very smaal. Again, conbined with all the old memebrship dates the ice doesn't look too thin. It may not be thick enough for a snow road but.....
 

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,580
Reaction score
2,493
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
I think it also points to the serious lack of discussion going on...outside BFC.

Here it is the same 12 or so people.
It seems like you diminish the value of this site by both underestimating the number of participants - by orders of magnitude - or even attempting to quantify what should be a qualitative scale of judgement in the first place. Though admittedly I have done similar analyses of the CMBN and CMSF sites and forum stats, but not to comment on the value of the site. I would not write off the gamesquad forum as "just a dozen people" or, frankly, consider it unimportant. A community is what one makes of it. All the sites are part of a tapestry.

Wargamer has maybe 6 pages of a dozen different people. There is a little discussion at ACG, TheBlitz, a couple other CM1 ladder sites. But I have yet to see any significant discssion yet. And there is very little blog and press coverage.

This in contrast to CMSF and even the Marine module.
I took a peek at a Few Good Men after someone mentioned at BFC that POS had reviewed the game there. I couldn't find the review but I did find some spirited discussion. I guess if I wanted to dismiss the site as "just a dozen or so people" I could, but I have no idea how many people lurk there - i.e. read the site regularly without posting, or only post infrequently. I'm not sure it matters much. As I said above, the community is more than just the number of people showing themselves on the sites you happen to know about.

We made some pretty interesting conclusions about CM:SF based on the relative lack of interest we perceived on community sites, but I think we backed those up with other observable data - rapidly declining retail price, review ratings in the mainstream hobby press, third party scenario offerings, etc. That kind of data is not yet observable for CM:BN, and some of it may never be - i.e. retail price, given that at present, it appears to remain a BFC-only purchase.

Steve has addressed the lack of reviews in a fairly reasonable post; certainly the landscape has changed. I suspect there is more to it - he did not indicate whether or not they considered submitting the game for review to 'mainstream' hobby sites (EDIT - actually he may have, I'd have to reread his post), but did indicate how few of those there appear to be now. It's a trend that is prevalent in all kinds of reporting; with "Twitter" feeds being reported by local weathermen (yeah - I want to know what my neighbour 'thinks' the weather will be rather than having a trained meteorologist just tell me what his forecast model predicts) I think he has a point.

I don't disagree that the perception of a lack of serious discussion about the game may be accurate, but I don't think it has to do with the game. Serious discussion is simply dying out all over the place in favour of uninformed ranting, sound bytes and kneejerking. Steve has suggested some serious reviews are in the offing. In the meantime, apparently POS - that unbiased, rational observer of tactical combat in the 20th Century - has apparently weighed in with what are I am sure stunning screenshots.

If you can find them. And can get past the sig lines and avatars, which of course are the hallmarks of a site designed for serious discourse.
 
Last edited:

BlitzCanuck

Pretend Command Sgt. Maj.
Joined
Aug 19, 2006
Messages
228
Reaction score
5
Location
Great White North
Country
llCanada
This isn't going to change anything. People that already disliked BFC will just have more fuel for the fire. The fanboy's will easily forgive them. Everyone that is somewhere in the middle will perhaps be slightly annoyed (although i'm guessing quite a few won't even notice) but it's not a big enough deal to move them into the 'hate' column.
 

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,580
Reaction score
2,493
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
It's also worth noting that the game has only been out a week.

I think I understand what thewood is saying, if his comments are intended to compare and contrast the splash that previous or other games have made on the "public consciousness" in comparison to what CM:BN is doing. Steve is saying the landscape has changed. dalem would say not to trust a word Steve says. Well, often I don't but that doesn't mean Steve can't be right about this. Personally - and speaking only for myself - I've seen too many lame products come out in this genre to really get my hopes up anymore. GI:Combat, Squad Assault, Steel Panthers: World at War, CM:SF - it's a long list. Brothers in Arms, even the Operation Flashpoint sequels by the competing developers were either not great or just pale imitations of former selves. I think we can now speak of a "golden age" for this genre (the realistic tactical warfare sims that devoted themselves to accurate portrayals of Second World War ground combat) that began around 1999-2000. I hate to say it but CM:BN and PzC:O may simply be more recycling of old material. Good material, to be sure, but nothing earthshaking the way we were treated to in 2000 with new visions.

But it is probably unfair to expect that either. I see Red Orchestra is going to put out some new "stuff" in months to come too.

I'm not sure what the next big leap could possibly be, but like these things go, it will probably be something unexpected, from someone we haven't even heard of yet.

The genre is mostly just comfortable old shoes now. In CM's case, they're still trying to break back in the old pair after resoling them.
 

Tanker

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2004
Messages
702
Reaction score
4
Location
New Hampshire
Country
llUnited States
It could be debated until the cows come home (even though they're not modeled in the game) but I think the ice is a lot thicker than you think it is. At least that is what I am seeing when I look around the 3 spots where I see CM discussed.
Maybe, but why pour rock salt on the ice, while holding a blowtorch to it?
 
Top