The ongoing bad mouthing of Montogomery in the American film

The Purist

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pmririshman said:
You might want to read Brian Loring Villa Unauthorized Action: Mountbatten and the Dieppe Raid. Montgomery did more than just suggest cancelling the operation. He was involved with the idea of reducing air support in the mistaken hope of achieving suprise. Achieving surprise was a forlorn hope because the flank attacks took place a half-hour before the main landings. In consequence, the main landings lacked the fire support to accomplish their mission.
Oh, worry not. I agree that it was a disaster and just about everything that could go wrong did and I do not absolve the commanders of their share of the blame. My post was more directed at my fellow Canadians who dwell too damn much on this failed raid. Considering what the assult troops had to face, it is actually something of a miracle that 30% made it back.

As for the fire support, it would have taken far more support (naval and air) than was available to the entire operation to have been of any real help. They were not trying to open a second front, it was only meant to be a raid. It failed,...badly. Take whatever lessons could be learned and move on. Tarawa was hardly a gem of a plan and the casualties also exceedingly heavy (shocking, actually) but it sure as heck taught the marines and US Navy a thing or two about opposed landings even as late as Nov 1943. So much for the pre-war marine exercises. They learned, they moved on, they succeeded later on with much reduced casualties.

However, I'm sure you will continue to look for reasons to despise the man,...fair enough,...whatever floats your boat and keeps you warm at night :devious:

Cheers, enjoyed the debate. :)
 
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pmririshman

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The Purist said:
However, I'm sure you will continue to look for reasons to despise the man,...fair enough,...whatever floats your boat and keeps you warm at night :devious:

Cheers, enjoyed the debate. :)
Please show me where I wrote I despised Montgomery or anyone for that matter. I don't despise him or anyone else (well, there is that woman at work, but that's another story. :laugh: ) You have read to much into my posts. I've just tried to show that perhaps some assessments of Montgomery have been a little over-generous, and that intelligent and knowledgeable people can have different opinions on Montgomery.

Great website, Full Monty.
 

The Purist

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pmririshman said:
Great website, Full Monty.
Yes, the one post about the bomber support being withdrawn and not replaced opens some interesting points for examination. Once the political decision had been made to cancel the bombing of the town the army asked for, first, a battleship, but the RN declined as it was too dangerous in 1942 to put the battlewagons in the channel. The army then asked for a pair of crusisers,...the RN said none were available. So,...it was up to the six destroyers with their 4" guns bobbing about on the channel.

pmririshman said:
I've just tried to show that perhaps some assessments of Montgomery have been a little over-generous, and that intelligent and knowledgeable people can have different opinions on Montgomery.
On that we can agree, just as I (and others) have had tried to show that far too many people do not give the man credit for doing an excellent job and suceeding where so many others had failed.
 

Full Monty

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pmririshman said:
Great website, Full Monty.
Cheers! The Dieppe Raid is an operation that I know relatively little about so I did a Google search. When I saw that page, and noting the opinions expressed in this thread, I thought I'd provide the link to demonstrate that the application of blame for that particular fiasco isn't particularly clear cut.

I've just tried to show that perhaps some assessments of Montgomery have been a little over-generous, and that intelligent and knowledgeable people can have different opinions on Montgomery.
Hmmmmmm, you've certainly erred towards the negative side, definitely finding nothing praiseworthy in any of his military operations ;)
 

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Full Monty said:
Regarding Dieppe, http://www.nwha.org/news_3Q2000/news_page5.html has some interestingly varying opinions on why the raid went wrong and who was responsible for it.
Thanks I have the Osprey book on the Dieppe raid, but havent go to reading it yet.

I think it gives just an action report, with no analysis or blaiming in depth.

Anyway, it will be interesting to compare what the site you gave said and what the Osprey book is of mind! Needless to say I bookmarked the site you gave out!

One thing that got my attention when I got the book and was flikking through it, was the picture of Lord Lovatt, just returned onto a warship from Dieppe, with his hunting rifle in hand, and the man looked like he had been on a mornings deer hunt!

I think he was an extraordinarily brave and talented man. The US Rangers trained under him for a while I belive, and He came to the resque of the British Para's on D-day with bagpipers and all!!!

Actually he wasnt that exentric, he put the bagpipes to warn the para's he was coming, and thus avoid a 'blue on blue'...

A fearsome warrior, and had an almost too upperclass understatement in his demenour. I still can't get my head arround that picture where he is discussing the Dieppe raid, from where he has returned but tens of minutes before, like after a good hunt, rifle and all... Amazing.
 

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17poundr,

Look into the history of the Lovat Scouts in World War 1 and you will not be surprized. The Lord Lovat of Scotland in the First World War raised a unit of deerstalkers from Highland Ghillies and they were employed as snipers at the front. They were excellent in this role. I think the Lord Lovat in the Picture was the son of the other Lovat in World War 2.

I am not real sure of the history of the Lovat Scouts in WW 2, but having the Lord Lovat in the SAS does not surprize me. He donated use of estate for SAS training for the War.

The British Aristocracy has been "hunting" for a long time. It used to be a means of filling up the larder for winter, but it has evolved into "Sport". I remember the story of one "Lord" who was reputed to be the "best shot in Britain". On one hunt for grouse his gunbearer started out shooting him so he shot a nearby sheep and told his man to put that in his game bag and carry it! I doubt the servant shot many more birds while carrying a dead sheep!

Pruitt
 

pmririshman

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Full Monty said:
Hmmmmmm, you've certainly erred towards the negative side, definitely finding nothing praiseworthy in any of his military operations ;)
Ah, but I never mentioned Montgomery and Sicily. If it wasn't for him, the Allies would never have had a workable plan.
 

Full Monty

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pmririshman said:
Ah, but I never mentioned Montgomery and Sicily. If it wasn't for him, the Allies would never have had a workable plan.
Better late than never :devil:

But don't mention this around any Patton 'fanboys' because they'll claim that the plan was really his!
 

Patton 7079

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NO IT WASN'T pattons plan his was different and would have enabled the allies to win quicker with less casualties. But Monty Bitched because he wanted to Get more credit and become the hero of WW2

Patton Who Captured Palermo and Sicly under Monty's nose

STRIKE 1 up for Patton.


"Hell ill admit im a premadana what i can't stand about Monty is he wont admit it"-General Patton
 

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Sheik Yerbouti said:
If you ask me Patton is even more overrated than Monty. :p
Let's not even go there ;)

Patton 7079 said:
Patton Who Captured Palermo and Sicly under Monty's nose
This wouldn't be the same Patton who let the Germans evacuate their troops because he was more concerned with reaching Messina 1st and thereby getting up Monty's nose? :devil:
 

The Purist

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Patton 7079 said:
...Patton Who Captured Palermo and Sicly under Monty's nose...
Capturing Palermo was hardly a stroke of genius there was almost no resistance,...the Germans were retreating in another direction. That being said, Patton did get on the road and secured the northwest part of the island.

Patton 7079 said:
..."Hell ill admit im a premadana what i can't stand about Monty is he wont admit it"-General Patton
The above line should be quoted "George C. Scott" - Actor, not Patton. All the same, best not to quote a line from that particular movie.

Sheik Yerbouti said:
If you ask me Patton is even more overrated than Monty.
Full Monty said:
Let's not even go there
Yes, indeed, it would require a new thread.
 

pmririshman

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Some people here have wrote a lot of posts reflexively defending Montgomery whenever anyone posted something that could be construed as disparaging him, and yet felt no compunction about belittling American commanders without giving any proof. If you ask me there is little difference between Patton's "fanboys" and Monty's "Maniacs".
 

Full Monty

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pmririshman said:
Some people here have wrote a lot of posts reflexively defending Montgomery whenever anyone posted something that could be construed as disparaging him, and yet felt no compunction about belittling American commanders without giving any proof. If you ask me there is little difference between Patton's "fanboys" and Monty's "Maniacs".
Careful, you're getting into Armstrong's territory now ;)

If you check back through the thread (yes I know there's now 19 pages!) you'll find plenty of recognised criticism of Montgomery from both myself and Gerry (presuming we're the 'maniacs' you're slagging here). Regards the belittling of American commanders, how could we seriously question their well proven collective godlike genius for all aspects of warfare, both ancient and modern :rolleyes:
 

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Full Monty said:
This wouldn't be the same Patton who let the Germans evacuate their troops because he was more concerned with reaching Messina 1st and thereby getting up Monty's nose? :devil:
All that would have been required to prevent the evacuation of Sicily is a couple of ships in the straits. Last time I looked Patton was a general, not an admiral.
 

The Purist

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tsar said:
All that would have been required to prevent the evacuation of Sicily is a couple of ships in the straits. Last time I looked Patton was a general, not an admiral.
Hmmm,...nope, not really. The straits were pretty well covered by German shore batteries and the air made pretty hot by a very large flak force backed up by the ever present, if weakening, Luftwaffe. Nonetheless, it could be argued that the allied navy or airforce could have tried a daytime interdiction,...but it would have been very costly.

However, if a powerful land force gets between the troops waiting to evacuate and the beaches they will evacuate from,...well then, no air cover or coastal artillery back-up from the opposite shore will help them.
 

Full Monty

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tsar said:
All that would have been required to prevent the evacuation of Sicily is a couple of ships in the straits. Last time I looked Patton was a general, not an admiral.
I'm sure the 'Kriegsmarine' could have sent a couple of ships into the Channel to prevent the Dunkirk evacuation in 1940. Last time I looked, Von Rundstedt was a general, not an admiral :devil:

Anyway, it's a moot point. We have a thread about Patton elsewhere.
 

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Full Monty said:
I'm sure the 'Kriegsmarine' could have sent a couple of ships into the Channel to prevent the Dunkirk evacuation in 1940. Last time I looked, Von Rundstedt was a general, not an admiral :devil:

Anyway, it's a moot point. We have a thread about Patton elsewhere.
I would have to point out that Patton wasn’t in over-all command in Sicily. Nor was it his plan, but as was pointed out here “Ah, but I never mentioned Montgomery and Sicily. If it wasn't for him, the Allies would never have had a workable plan†it was Monty’s. What was his plan to prevent the escape of the German army there?
 

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tsar said:
I would have to point out that Patton wasn’t in over-all command in Sicily. Nor was it his plan, but as was pointed out here “Ah, but I never mentioned Montgomery and Sicily. If it wasn't for him, the Allies would never have had a workable plan†it was Monty’s. What was his plan to prevent the escape of the German army there?
Well Monty wasn't in overall command either! In any case, it's not a question of a plan, it's a question of taking an opportunity. Patton had the opportunity but was more interested in beating Monty to Messina :devil:
 
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