The number of units at Ponyri

[Proff3RTR]

Another interesting thing which I know applies to German Infantry-Regiments but the underlying logic of which is likely also to apply in a similar manner to other units:

In a Regiment there is the

- Regiment's Staff with a Staff Platoon
- Regiment's Train
- Some units inherent to the Regiment (Pionier-Platoon, Cavalry-Platoon, Communications-Platoon, Music-Band

Then come its 3 Infantry Bataillons (of 4 Kompanien each).
Then two more Kompanien inherent to the Regiment (Infantry Guns, and AT-Guns)
At last a unit tansporting part of the ammo.

The interesting point is, that you can tell the role of each Kompanie by its designation:
The first 3 companies of each Bataillon are "normal" Infantry-Companies, the 4th company in each Bataillon is the HW-Company with extra HMG and Medium MTRs. This means that in Infantry (or since 1942 in Grenadier-Divisions)

1. / 2. / 3. / 5. / 6. / 7. / 9. / 10. / 11. companies are usually always normal infantry companies
4. / 8. / 12. companies are usually always HW companies
13. is normally always the Infanteriegeschütz-Kompanie (IG)
14. is normally always the Panzerjäger-Kompanie (AT-Guns)

So the Regiment has 14 Companies (disregarding the other aforementioned special units) of which 1. to 4. are I. Bataillon, 5. to 8. are II. Bataillon, and 9. to 12. are III. Bataillon while 13. and 14. are inherent to the Regiment but not the Bataillon.

There is this little book that helped me a lot to understand the structure of German infantry units (it goes quite into detail down to the last pistol with regards to armament):

https://www.amazon.com/German-Infantry-Handbook-1939-1945/dp/0887402844/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488379008&sr=8-1&keywords=alex+Buchner+handbook+of+german+infantry

von Marwitz

Again, yep, fully aware of how the Kompanie were numbered, so 1,2,3 would be Rifle Kompanie in the I Bataillon and 4th Kompanie would be the Heavy weapons Kompanie (Anti Tank, Mortars etc).

in SS units you had sometimes 15th & 16th kompanies, (15th being the regimental Recon kompanie for instance).

 

[Honza]

So there was this group of German soldiers with machine guns and cannons and tanks who charged the Russians head on. It came to drama and most of them died!

That's my version of what happened!

 

[Proff3RTR]

So there was this group of German soldiers with machine guns and cannons and tanks who charged the Russians head on. It came to drama and most of them died!

That's my version of what happened!

Pretty much in a nut shell Jan, except loads more Russians died and all together tonnes died on both sides, and the scrap merchants had a field day with all that wrecked armour laying around

 

[Paul M. Weir]

Interesting and informative posts on the German naming patterns.

Bataillon equal to English "Battalion", that's one I have missed or just scanned over when reading. Sometimes you see what you expect to see (IE Battalion).
Abteilung I have always understood as more literally translated to "Detachment" but equivalent to a smaller battalion.

Maybe I have picked it up wrong over the years but I got the impression that the Batallion/Abteilung split was originally that a Batallion was 5 companies or higher and an Abteilung was under 5 companies. That would would have originated sometime in WW1 or maybe earlier. An early WW1 infantry regiment would have had 4 battalions each of 4 rifle and a MG company and the division would have had 2 brigades each of 2 regiments for a 4 regiment 'square' division with 16 battalions. Between the WW1 and post WW1 reorganisations the 'triangular' a division had 3 regiments (no brigade level below division except for early Pz Div) each with 3 battalions for a total of 9.

From what I read, during the inter-war years some or many of the Batallion had 5 companies, 3 infantry, 1 MG and 1 mortar company. After the start of WW2 any remaining separate MG and mortar companies had merged so reducing most Batallion to 4 companies. I have seen some early WW2 PaK and Infantry Gun companies numbered at 16 & 17 rather than the more usual 13 & 14.

The overall result is I have a gut feeling that the split in designations came when smaller battalions that were organised for the likes of recon (2-4 companies), panzer (officially 4) or PaK (3) were organised, being smaller than the existing 5 company Batallion, were called Abteilungen (detachment) and that pattern stuck even when the infantry Batallions went to 4 companies and some Abteilungen might have just possibly hit 5.

Now that's my take on it but may be partly wrong or garbled, so caveat emptor.

 

[Honza]

Hi you Guys - have a look at this. It was posted on the ASL FB page. I know you're not members so I posted it here. The Ponyri CG playtest!

 

[Proff3RTR]

Hi you Guys - have a look at this. It was posted on the ASL FB page. I know you're not members so I posted it here. The Ponyri CG playtest!

View attachment 1206

and that looks light for the area! nice to see it being played though

 

[Vinnie]

To avoid counter clutter but make the map use able send defences customisable, could you have acetate overlays first mine and trench belts?

 

[Proff3RTR]

To avoid counter clutter but make the map use able send defences customisable, could you have acetate overlays first mine and trench belts?

use a thin (1 mm thick maximum clear plastic overly, that would work perfect, I have used this on many custom built maps covering the southern flank of Kursk).

 

[Honza]

Someone else mentioned using a non permanent marker on the plexi glass to draw the fortification chains.

Perry - 40 Russian Tanks just entered along with 6 guards coy. The Germans have about 30 AFV onboard.

 

[Honza]

I don't see many forts though.

 

[Proff3RTR]

Someone else mentioned using a non permanent marker on the plexi glass to draw the fortification chains.

Perry - 40 Russian Tanks just entered along with 6 guards coy. The Germans have about 30 AFV onboard.

Gonna get messy

 

[Yuri0352]

Gonna get messy

Sure will, especially when that guy on the right knocks over that soda can with his elbow.

 

[Proff3RTR]

Sure will, especially when that guy on the right knocks over that soda can with his elbow.

I know, Heresy, pure Heresy, the man needs to be briefed up big time.

 

[Honza]

I know, Heresy, pure Heresy, the man needs to be briefed up big time.

Apparently it was empty.

 

[Honza]

A bit more info on the CG. The climax of the CG features about 75 tanks and 200 squads. The fortifications are drawn on the plexi glass and can't be seen on the photo. They come into play earlier in the CG. The playtesting crew did their best to reduce the counter clutter to make the CG actually playable and *fun*....they ended up with the numbers mentioned above (across the whole map). They wanted the CG to use the whole map. Air support is negligible because there is so much else going on.

 

[Honza]

6 CG dates - 7th 8th 9th with AM and PM. Did the fighting continue after the 9th?

 

[Proff3RTR]

6 CG dates - 7th 8th 9th with AM and PM. Did the fighting continue after the 9th?

Yes, it rolled into the 10th (the 9th was a hard day Ponyri wise for both sides), the early hours of the 10th saw a massive attack by the Soviets, the 1st battalion 9th Guards Rifle Regiment managed to get all the way to the Orchard (sat west of the North south Rail way on the far north west side of the town entrance roughly in the area of Hex H3), during the day the old German front line was retaken by 292nd Infantry Div & elements of 18th Pz Div, this was in preparation for 292nd handing over the main sector in Pnyri to the 10th Panzer Grenadier Division later that night,

292nd suffered 316 casualties on the 10th alone, from the 5th July through to the moment when they pulled out of the area of Ponyri on the 10th July the Division had suffered 2,141 casualties, of which 405 were confirmed KIA, a high loss rate for any Division, but when you look at what they started with, the rate of loss becomes catastrophic.
The Division started the operation with a combat strength (not total) of 5,983, this is excluding all attached formations. by the morning of the 11th July when the unit had fully pulled out and had assembled in its assembly area prior to reorganizing itself it stood at 4,063, this numbers belies the fact that reinforcements had been taken on and that the actual state of the fighting components was shocking.
as a few examples look at the following:
Gren.Regt 507, start strength of 1,194 Officers & men, Ration return as of AM 11/07/43, 437 men all in.
The II.Batailion of this Regiment could muster only 106 men!.
Gren.Regt 508, start strength of 1,173 Officers & men, Ration return as of AM 11/07/43, 540 men all in.
The Division reserve which was Div.Btl.292 had only 250 men left (it had suffered almost exactly 50% losses).


As of night time 10th, 10th PzGr had responsibility for the parts of the village held by the Germans, the 11th was spent in relative quiet as far as ponyri went, small probes by the Soviets in up to Regimental strength were beaten of by 10th Pz.Gr.Div & parts of 18th Pz.Div
This all changed as of early hours 12th July, due to the fact that the Soviet offensive against the northern flank had started, units were pulled back bit by bit as more and more mobile units were needed north of ponyri, However, this was not the end of 10th Pz.Gr.Divs trials in the area, on the evening of 12/13th July they took over the sector assigned to 18th Pz.Div as well as their own and were now stretched to the limit.
Not until the 15th July was the fighting really over in Ponyri, and then only as a fighting withdrawal from the area as the left shoulder of AGC started to collapse under the Soviets summer counter offensive.

So you could add a fair few more CG, and not be wrong.

hope that helps a bit.

Regards

Perry