The number of units at Ponyri
- Thread starter Honza
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RRschultze
Senior Member
CH did this with their map on Ponyri. Had minefields and wire printed on the map as well as having the option to roll randomly for strength of AP and AT. Definitely reduces counter clutter.
Proff3RTR
Elder Member
Only problem with the CH map was it was total bollox as far as Historical accuracy was concerned, pretty but complete bollox.
Honza
The Art Of Wargames
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Too many hills and buildings?
RRschultze
Senior Member
No. There are too many buildings, the map looks like a mini Stalingrad. The maps are pretty but not historical. When I designed my CG Ponyri I made the majority of the buildings as huts. In my early playtesting and in order to try and make it more historical I made over a 100 overlays, which is fine for VASL but too onerous if you are using the actual maps. CH did do a good job on the printed minefields, wire and trenches.
Proff3RTR
Elder Member
Nope, look at 'Objective Ponyri' that shows what the 'Real' village/Rail way halt of ponyri looked like, CH's map looks like SchultzeY said a mini Stalingrad! the real place is not like that, and the ground was a lot more open than the CH version as well, not much in the way of crops/wheat/sunflower fields in the area, more along the lines of tail steppe grass maximum 12 inches etc, lots of little copse here and there as well.
Eagle4ty
Forum Guru
Always had a mild distaste for printed trenches, minefields, etc. in HASLs. I think that the designers wanted you to refight the engagement on their terms and takes away the player's input. The "game" aspect of ASL should (in my view) allow one to have the general situation and let you make the decisions as to the placement of your defenses. Counter density for me is not a great challenge as when playing FtF my maps are covered by plastic and I can just draw on it using map pens if need be (wipes off good enough for me with alcohol). If a unit is IN a trench, bring out the trench counters! I've done this for Rubble, Debris, Changing Desert Boards to Steppe, etc. and so far (30+ years) has worked fine with my opponents. As for VASL, I wish they would make a few additional draggable overlays (esp. mines).
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
Though plastic on the playing area is not good looking, lowers the precision of LOS checks and is prone to create glare by reflection of lamps. And for those aesthetic minded folks, scrawling across the playing area with some markers is abhorrent [shudder]...
von Marwitz
For me it depends. If the defending unit had time to dig its own trenches, etc on its own plan, then I would agree to leave it up to a player. If they occupied an existing trench system built earlier or to a higher level plan then pre-printed fortifications with some extra percentage of player allocated fortifications that would correspond to the defending unit adding its own improvements.
Proff3RTR
Elder Member
Agree to a point, but for a HASL like SaP we know where the initial defence lines were and such, so I see no problem with having them in place on the map to start, what ever the player/s buy after that is up to them in the refit phase and such like.
Proff3RTR
Elder Member
I prefer to use Crayola, more my style
Perfect for that inner Kid you just gotta let out to play every now and then!
RRschultze
Senior Member
Looks like 18 Infantry companies required to represent the 507th and 508th German Infantry Regiment, not counting support weapons, at 12 counters a company thats 218 squads. There is a real argument though that the 292nd Infantry Division was not at full strength. With regards to the Ferdinands all 90+ were involved in the fighting around Ponyri, ok some will be out with repairs but its still a lot of armor, not counting the Brumbars (c54 if i recall) and the c72 AFV's of the 18th Panzer Division and the 177th Stug Abteilung attached to the Division. Its a counter Fest!!!
Proff3RTR
Elder Member
I will look over my info tonight and post as close as I can exact figs, the infantry were very under strength due to losses prior to reaching ponyri, so were the Ferds (1 company lost all but 3 of the allocated Ferdinands (and that was just clearing the first minefield on H-Hour on the 5th.
I would personally put the average strength in the Grenadier Kompanies at somewhere near 60/80 by the time the infantry reached ponyri, losses were really that high and as you will see the two Regiments were not that strong even at the start of the offensive. but as said will give a better overview later tonight.
Proff3RTR
Elder Member
Right, here we go, I must start by stating that all this information is from the excellent book 'Objective ponyri' by Martin Nevshemal, so all I am doing is sorting the info and presenting it to you lot for ease of reference:
As of end of June 43 the following ration returns were showing for the main units that would be involved in and around Ponyri.
86th Infanterie-Division (GenLt Helmuth Weidling)
Gren-Regt 167 (Oberst Gerhard Lidner) 931 men all in
I. Abtielung (443); II Abtielung (488).
Gren-Regt 184 (Oberst Martin Bieber) 883 men all in
I Abtielung (437); II Abtielung (446).
Gren-Regt 216 (Oberst Gerhard Lindmann) 856 men all in
I Abtielung (425); III Abtielung (431).
Sturm Abtielung 186 441 men
PzJgd Abtielung 186 233 men
Pio-Abtielung 186 387 men
Eratz (replacement Abtielung) 73 men.
This makes the Division 66% of full strength Before Zitadelle was launched.
Now 292nd Infanterie-Division which did the lions share of the fighting was even worse off.
292nd Infanterie-Division (GenLt Wolfgang Von Kluge)
Gren-Regt 507 (Oberst Hans Hahne) 1,154 men all in
I Abtielung; II Abtielung; III Abtielung.
Gren-Regt 508 (Oberst Georg Zierhold) 1,173 men all in
I Abtielung; II Abtielung; III Abtielung.
Div-Abtielung 292 (Hauptmann Wegehaupt) 503 men
Pio-Abt 292 402 men
PzJd Abt 292 212 men
This is 73 % authorized strength, but only in 2 Regiments.
Now, remember these two Division were the main driving force including the Ferdinand Regiment 656 (89 Ferdinands Total); (s.Pz.Jag.Abt.653 & 654) the Sturmpanzer Abt 216 (attached to s.Pz.Jag.Regt 656) with 45 SturmPanzers and Stug Abtielungs 177 & 244, This sounds a lot, but when you consider what they had to chew through to even get near Ponyri and you realize that when the started the first assault on the Railway halt Losses went skywards very quickly, for example 654's 2nd kompanie lost all but 2 of thier 14 Ferdinands just getting clear of the initial minefield just after H-Hour on the 5th/7th 43! the 1st kompanie lost another 6 clearing the same minefield although through another lane cleared by BIVs and Pioneers, (clearly not to well).
After this initial attack once clear the main attack was lead by roughly only 12 Ferds toward Buzuluk, during which time they tangled with and destroyed some SU-152 that had been sent to slow/stop them at ranges upto and including 3,000 meters.
in the Korps middle sector Gren-Regt 508 (292nd Infanterie-Division) was to attack towards Alexnadrovka, this attack was supported by Stugs from 1st Batterie Stug Abt 244 and 1st Kompanie pio Abt 292, this attack actually worked with very light losses, when Gren-Regt 508 attacked as well the whole Division advanced fairly quickly, but losses mounted as the day wore on.
In total 292nd Infanterie-Division reported the following losses for just the 5th july 43
Gren-Rgt 507 - 93 dead & wounded..
Gren-Rgt 508 - 30 dead and 80/90 wounded.
Pz-Gren-Rgt 101 (attached from 18 Pz Div) 50 dead, 16 missing and 196 wounded.
what should be taken from this is the losses represented the following % of at start strength for the battle
Gren-Rgt 507 1,154 at start, by 2359hrs 5/7/43 1,061. This is a loss rate of roughly 8.5%
Gren-Rgt 508 1,173 at start, by 2359hrs 5/7/43 1/053. This is a loss rate of roughly 10.2 %
These do not sound big numbers, but you must remember this is the first day, the units were not that large to start with and they had only just started to bite into the Soviet defense belt.
losses for 6th july were 203 men all in, add this to the 213 men from the day before and that is 416 men in 2 days, which by any ones scoring is a high loss rate for a medium strength Division to sustain.
Now on the 7th July 292nd started its assault on Ponyri, this is where the losses go through the roof at the end of the 7th, the Division suffered another 545 casualties, 106 KIA, 413 WIA & 26 MIA.
so in 3 days of combat 292nd had sustained 961 men KIA/WIA/MIA, now if we take these losses just from the two Gren-Rgt this is a overall loss rate of 41.28%, clearly the losses were not just from those two Regiments, but they would of suffered the lions share due to the nature of being a line Infantry man.
Either way losses would of eroded Kompanies down to roughly 50/60 men at most by the evening of the 7th july, and less by morning on the 8th.
all the best
Perry
As of end of June 43 the following ration returns were showing for the main units that would be involved in and around Ponyri.
86th Infanterie-Division (GenLt Helmuth Weidling)
Gren-Regt 167 (Oberst Gerhard Lidner) 931 men all in
I. Abtielung (443); II Abtielung (488).
Gren-Regt 184 (Oberst Martin Bieber) 883 men all in
I Abtielung (437); II Abtielung (446).
Gren-Regt 216 (Oberst Gerhard Lindmann) 856 men all in
I Abtielung (425); III Abtielung (431).
Sturm Abtielung 186 441 men
PzJgd Abtielung 186 233 men
Pio-Abtielung 186 387 men
Eratz (replacement Abtielung) 73 men.
This makes the Division 66% of full strength Before Zitadelle was launched.
Now 292nd Infanterie-Division which did the lions share of the fighting was even worse off.
292nd Infanterie-Division (GenLt Wolfgang Von Kluge)
Gren-Regt 507 (Oberst Hans Hahne) 1,154 men all in
I Abtielung; II Abtielung; III Abtielung.
Gren-Regt 508 (Oberst Georg Zierhold) 1,173 men all in
I Abtielung; II Abtielung; III Abtielung.
Div-Abtielung 292 (Hauptmann Wegehaupt) 503 men
Pio-Abt 292 402 men
PzJd Abt 292 212 men
This is 73 % authorized strength, but only in 2 Regiments.
Now, remember these two Division were the main driving force including the Ferdinand Regiment 656 (89 Ferdinands Total); (s.Pz.Jag.Abt.653 & 654) the Sturmpanzer Abt 216 (attached to s.Pz.Jag.Regt 656) with 45 SturmPanzers and Stug Abtielungs 177 & 244, This sounds a lot, but when you consider what they had to chew through to even get near Ponyri and you realize that when the started the first assault on the Railway halt Losses went skywards very quickly, for example 654's 2nd kompanie lost all but 2 of thier 14 Ferdinands just getting clear of the initial minefield just after H-Hour on the 5th/7th 43! the 1st kompanie lost another 6 clearing the same minefield although through another lane cleared by BIVs and Pioneers, (clearly not to well).
After this initial attack once clear the main attack was lead by roughly only 12 Ferds toward Buzuluk, during which time they tangled with and destroyed some SU-152 that had been sent to slow/stop them at ranges upto and including 3,000 meters.
in the Korps middle sector Gren-Regt 508 (292nd Infanterie-Division) was to attack towards Alexnadrovka, this attack was supported by Stugs from 1st Batterie Stug Abt 244 and 1st Kompanie pio Abt 292, this attack actually worked with very light losses, when Gren-Regt 508 attacked as well the whole Division advanced fairly quickly, but losses mounted as the day wore on.
In total 292nd Infanterie-Division reported the following losses for just the 5th july 43
Gren-Rgt 507 - 93 dead & wounded..
Gren-Rgt 508 - 30 dead and 80/90 wounded.
Pz-Gren-Rgt 101 (attached from 18 Pz Div) 50 dead, 16 missing and 196 wounded.
what should be taken from this is the losses represented the following % of at start strength for the battle
Gren-Rgt 507 1,154 at start, by 2359hrs 5/7/43 1,061. This is a loss rate of roughly 8.5%
Gren-Rgt 508 1,173 at start, by 2359hrs 5/7/43 1/053. This is a loss rate of roughly 10.2 %
These do not sound big numbers, but you must remember this is the first day, the units were not that large to start with and they had only just started to bite into the Soviet defense belt.
losses for 6th july were 203 men all in, add this to the 213 men from the day before and that is 416 men in 2 days, which by any ones scoring is a high loss rate for a medium strength Division to sustain.
Now on the 7th July 292nd started its assault on Ponyri, this is where the losses go through the roof at the end of the 7th, the Division suffered another 545 casualties, 106 KIA, 413 WIA & 26 MIA.
so in 3 days of combat 292nd had sustained 961 men KIA/WIA/MIA, now if we take these losses just from the two Gren-Rgt this is a overall loss rate of 41.28%, clearly the losses were not just from those two Regiments, but they would of suffered the lions share due to the nature of being a line Infantry man.
Either way losses would of eroded Kompanies down to roughly 50/60 men at most by the evening of the 7th july, and less by morning on the 8th.
all the best
Perry
RRschultze
Senior Member
Nice one Perry, I also have Neveshals book, excellent book.
Proff3RTR
Elder Member
It most certainly is, I have found it to be a wealth of good info on a not to understood part of Zittadelle, when you look at the actual ground it makes you wonder how losses were not higher! and also how good the ground was for Tanks et al.
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
As you are obviously very interested in the details, you will probably welcome some spelling corrections:
It would be
"Abteilung" instead of "Abtielung"
"Ersatz" instead of "Eratz"
The following is guesses without having double-checked:
Gren-Regt 167 (Oberst Gerhard Lidner) - maybe Lindner? Lidner would be an unusual name while Lindner seems more likely.
PzJd Abt 292 212 men - maybe Pz.Jgd.Abt. 292 (Panzer Jagd Abteilung) or Pz.Jg.Abt. (Panzer Jäger Abteilung)?
Some things I noted, but again, which I have not double-checked:
Usually, within infantry-based units, the unit beneath the Regiment would be the Bataillon, while with tanks / artillery, it would be the Abteilung. So by gut feeling, I would have guessed that there would be Bataillons in the Panzergrenadier-Regiments rather than Abteilungen.
Some general observations:
Generally speaking, for the German unit designation, the following is true:
1. Infanterie-Division (Arabic Numerals for Divisions before the "Division" - MMP never gets this right...)
Infanterie-Regiment 2 (Arabic Numerals behind the "Regiments")
III. Bataillon / III. Abteilung (Roman Numerals before Bataillons (not Battalions) and Abteilungen, though this may be different for "special" Bataillons not inherent to a Regiment but to a Division)
4. Kompanie (Arabic Numerals before the Kompanien)
Something like 5./G.R. 30 means 5. Kompanie, Grenadier-Regiment 30
Something like III./P.G.R. 30 means III. Bataillon, Panzergrenadier-Regiment 30
As many unit names are given as abbreviations, there are dots where things are abbreviated, i.e. it would be Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 118 and not PzAufklAbt 118 (Panzer Aufklärungs Abteilung 118). This is also an example, where there is an Arabic Numeral behind an "Abteilung", which is because there is only one Panzer Aufklärungs Abteilung in a Division and it is not part of a specfic Regiment.
I don't want to come across know-it-all but just to provide some information as I have the impression you might be interested.
von Marwitz
Proff3RTR
Elder Member
Hi Von M,
nope, I do not mind at all my friend, I am aware of all the corrections you pointed out, I just was lazy and could not be arsed to lay out the correct unit designations as the Germans would of properly, but all the observations you have pointed out are as you say (again, just me being lazy).
I did however assume and clearly incorrectly that the battalions within a Pz.Gr.Rgt were classed as Abteilung (I had always thought that Abteilung was a generic term for a battalion sized unit, clearly this is not the case when dealing with Pz.Gr.Rgt's).
As to the Good Oberst, yep, my bad, his surname is Lindner, a simple spelling mistake on my part.
I can only apologies for my poor German, I should of spell checked it, but thought what little German I do have would get me by
again, I screwed that puppy up.All the best
Perry
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
No worries Perry. In fact, despite being German and having read quite a lot, I am bytimes struggling to get things right (or am too lazy... ). For example, one thing that I have not yet completely grokked is the 'system' (I bet there's gotta be one...) how to handle the dashes in the unit designations.
For example, does Pz.Aufkl.Abt. become Panzeraufklärungs-Abteilung or Panzer-Aufklärungsabteilung (the former would more hint at tanks being recced, the latter to tanks doing the recce) or Panzer Aufklärungs-Abteilung, or Panzer Aufklärungs Abteilung... In this case, I kind of dodged around myself in my previous post omitting any dash despite I am pretty sure there should be one somewhere.
von Marwitz
). For example, one thing that I have not yet completely grokked is the 'system' (I bet there's gotta be one...) how to handle the dashes in the unit designations.For example, does Pz.Aufkl.Abt. become Panzeraufklärungs-Abteilung or Panzer-Aufklärungsabteilung (the former would more hint at tanks being recced, the latter to tanks doing the recce) or Panzer Aufklärungs-Abteilung, or Panzer Aufklärungs Abteilung... In this case, I kind of dodged around myself in my previous post omitting any dash despite I am pretty sure there should be one somewhere.
von Marwitz
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
Another interesting thing which I know applies to German Infantry-Regiments but the underlying logic of which is likely also to apply in a similar manner to other units:
In a Regiment there is the
- Regiment's Staff with a Staff Platoon
- Regiment's Train
- Some units inherent to the Regiment (Pionier-Platoon, Cavalry-Platoon, Communications-Platoon, Music-Band
Then come its 3 Infantry Bataillons (of 4 Kompanien each).
Then two more Kompanien inherent to the Regiment (Infantry Guns, and AT-Guns)
At last a unit tansporting part of the ammo.
The interesting point is, that you can tell the role of each Kompanie by its designation:
The first 3 companies of each Bataillon are "normal" Infantry-Companies, the 4th company in each Bataillon is the HW-Company with extra HMG and Medium MTRs. This means that in Infantry (or since 1942 in Grenadier-Divisions)
1. / 2. / 3. / 5. / 6. / 7. / 9. / 10. / 11. companies are usually always normal infantry companies
4. / 8. / 12. companies are usually always HW companies
13. is normally always the Infanteriegeschütz-Kompanie (IG)
14. is normally always the Panzerjäger-Kompanie (AT-Guns)
So the Regiment has 14 Companies (disregarding the other aforementioned special units) of which 1. to 4. are I. Bataillon, 5. to 8. are II. Bataillon, and 9. to 12. are III. Bataillon while 13. and 14. are inherent to the Regiment but not the Bataillon.
There is this little book that helped me a lot to understand the structure of German infantry units (it goes quite into detail down to the last pistol with regards to armament):
https://www.amazon.com/German-Infantry-Handbook-1939-1945/dp/0887402844/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488379008&sr=8-1&keywords=alex+Buchner+handbook+of+german+infantry
von Marwitz
In a Regiment there is the
- Regiment's Staff with a Staff Platoon
- Regiment's Train
- Some units inherent to the Regiment (Pionier-Platoon, Cavalry-Platoon, Communications-Platoon, Music-Band
Then come its 3 Infantry Bataillons (of 4 Kompanien each).
Then two more Kompanien inherent to the Regiment (Infantry Guns, and AT-Guns)
At last a unit tansporting part of the ammo.
The interesting point is, that you can tell the role of each Kompanie by its designation:
The first 3 companies of each Bataillon are "normal" Infantry-Companies, the 4th company in each Bataillon is the HW-Company with extra HMG and Medium MTRs. This means that in Infantry (or since 1942 in Grenadier-Divisions)
1. / 2. / 3. / 5. / 6. / 7. / 9. / 10. / 11. companies are usually always normal infantry companies
4. / 8. / 12. companies are usually always HW companies
13. is normally always the Infanteriegeschütz-Kompanie (IG)
14. is normally always the Panzerjäger-Kompanie (AT-Guns)
So the Regiment has 14 Companies (disregarding the other aforementioned special units) of which 1. to 4. are I. Bataillon, 5. to 8. are II. Bataillon, and 9. to 12. are III. Bataillon while 13. and 14. are inherent to the Regiment but not the Bataillon.
There is this little book that helped me a lot to understand the structure of German infantry units (it goes quite into detail down to the last pistol with regards to armament):
https://www.amazon.com/German-Infantry-Handbook-1939-1945/dp/0887402844/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488379008&sr=8-1&keywords=alex+Buchner+handbook+of+german+infantry
von Marwitz