The number of units at Ponyri

Honza

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Does anyone have an accurate idea as to how many units of infantry and AFV were at Ponyri? My initial impression was that the fighting was rather intense with a lot of units involved. However Pete Shelling has definitely said that the latest word on the matter is that only a few battalions were involved at any one time. My guess is that this info comes from the new Leaping Horseman book by Jason Mark. My question is: doesn't he always play down the numbers of units involved? He did this with Stalingrad too.

The "Slaughter At Ponyri" designers have scaled the CG down to be smaller and representative of the latest historical findings. Is it wise to trust any historical source as the definitive word? Ponyri has this reputation of being a hotspot in the Kursk offensive. Is this reputation undeserved?
 

Proff3RTR

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Does anyone have an accurate idea as to how many units of infantry and AFV were at Ponyri? My initial impression was that the fighting was rather intense with a lot of units involved. However Pete Shelling has definitely said that the latest word on the matter is that only a few battalions were involved at any one time. My guess is that this info comes from the new Leaping Horseman book by Jason Mark. My question is: doesn't he always play down the numbers of units involved? He did this with Stalingrad too.

The "Slaughter At Ponyri" designers have scaled the CG down to be smaller and representative of the latest historical findings. Is it wise to trust any historical source as the definitive word? Ponyri has this reputation of being a hotspot in the Kursk offensive. Is this reputation undeserved?
Jan,

Am at work at the moment, but when I get home I shall look at 'Objective Ponyri' this will give a pretty definitive answer to your question, but it was a bit more than a few battalions I can tell you now, on the German side the best part of a full Division (2 if you include the fighting around 1st May State Farm just North east of Ponyri) and attached units and on the Russian side the best part of a Rifle Division, 2 Regiments of Guards Airborne Infantry and a Tank corps.

As said give me until this afternoon and I should be able to rustle up an OB for you covering the whole fighting in and around Ponyri.

Perry
 

Honza

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I think Pete's point was that there was only a few battalions fighting at any one time. But with a couple of divisions in the area that sounds suspect.
 

Proff3RTR

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I think Pete's point was that there was only a few battalions fighting at any one time. But with a couple of divisions in the area that sounds suspect.
Jan, on the German side there was two infantry divisions in line abreast as it were for starters, (again I am at work so not got access to my books) add to this the Ferdinand Battalions (x2) and 2 IIRC Stug Battalions and you are starting to get a crowded battlefield.

On the Russian side I think it was the 307th Rifle Division, and then added to this was the 4th and 9th Guards Airborne Regiments, along with a Tank Corps.

Clearly all this was not all sat in the Village itself, which as you more than likely know was really just a north south strung out railway halt with roughly 100/150 dwellings and such like, 1st May state farm was at most a Klick to the North East from the northern edge of the village.

the only real time the Germans lowered their commitment in Ponyri was when they pulled out the infantry divisions and 10th PzGr Div moved in, but by then the real main fighting was over and Rokkosovsky had launched the northern part of the STAVKA Kursk counter attack plan.
 

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Bin that Jan, it looks pretty but is flawed, as it shows all the units that fought in and around Ponyri during the whole period and in a very styalized fashion, 18th Panzer never got anywhere near the village in reality (the Division performed very poorly during the offensive). The 78th 'Sturm' Div was more to the east fighting or trying to fight towards M
maloarkhangelsk, 9th Panzer was way off to the west so did not really get involved, 86th and 292nd were the two main units involved during the main part of the fighting.
 

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Hi Jan,

Here is a bit more information, these are the general units (no real in depth detail am still working on that for you) that started the attack upto Ponyri and then into the village proper over the 6th & 7th July 43:

Forces committed 6th July:
German:

western flank-Aimed at Ponyri
292nd Infanterie-Division
507th & 508th Gren.Regts
2 x Ferdinand Kompanie s.Pz.Jag.Abt 654
Stug Abt 244
SturmPanzer Abt 216 (Brumbar)

Eastern flank-Aimed at 1st May State Farm (less than 1 Km North East of Northern edge of Ponyri).
86th Infanterie-Division
s.Pz.Jag.Regt 656
Styg Abt 177

Russian units:
Remains of 81st Rifle Division (410/467 & 519th Rifle Regiments)
307th Rifle Division 1019/1021/1023rd Rifle regiments)
43rd tank Regiment
129th Tank Brigade (East flank naer 1st May state Farm, clashed with the Ferdinands of S.Pz.Jag.Regt 656)
1044th Self propelled anti tank Regiment (12 x SU 152, same as above, mixed it up with the 656th but came off worst)
elements 74th RD (East of 1st May state farm but able to bring fire to bear so have included them).
5th Artillery Penetration Division (over 200 Tubes).

Forces Committed 7th July:
German
:
292nd Infanterie-Division
507th Gern.Regt 508th Gren.Regt
Div.Abt 292 & s.Pz.Jag.Abt 653 as a break through force to exploit any gaps.
I/Art.Regt 292, II/Morser.Abt 604, II/Werfer.Regt 53, I/Flak.Regt 26- all as fire support for 292nd Infanterie-Divisions attack on Ponyri itself.
Artillery reserve used as a bombardment group:
Werfer.Regt 54, s.Gr.Werfer.Abt 19, II/Morser.Abt 604

Total Fire support of 27 Artillery & 3 Werfer Abtielung.

XXXXI Pz Korps had more in reserve to call on as and when needed.

86th Infanterie-Division was to battle for 1st May state farm on the Eastern flank for most of the day so did not really have much of an impact on the fighting for Ponyri itself.

Russian:
307th Rifle Division-
1019th Rifle Regiment holding western flank of Ponyri
1021st Rifle Regiment, 1 Battalion holding the Northern edge of Ponyri, 2nd Battalion then holding a line form 1st Battalions right flank up to and including 1st May state farm.
1023rd Rifle Regiment, dug in in depth in and around main part of Ponyri.
129th Tank Brigade, 1st guards Engineer Brigade, 13th Anti Tank Artillery Regiment.
Fire support:
11th Mortar Brigade, 46th Light Artillery Brigade, 540th light artillery brigade, 22nd Guards Mortar regiment, most of 5th Artillery Penetration Division.
Total, 380 Tubes +.

reserve committed late morning, 27th Tank Regiment (KV-1 Armed)


By any stretch of the imagination the above is slightly more than a couple of battalions per side, numbers are when you look at the size of the area, simply staggering, the above is a very large number of troops and AFV to have in such a small area.

PM me if you want more info.

cheers

Perry
 

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I hope Pete sees your post. I wonder where he gets his historical info from. They deliberately cut back the number of units in the module so that it wasn't so counter intensive. Looks like I'm gonna have to double the OB!
 

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I can understand why they cut back the units, the main unit fighting in and around Ponyri (by around I mean within1,000 meters of the village was as you know 292nd Infanterie-Division, this unit was augmented by lots of attachments over its' 3 and a bit days fighting in the place (7th-19th July), Russian 3rd Tank Corps got stuck into Ponyri on the 8th on wards, so you can imagine how much stuff was in the local area!, clearly not every thing was fighting at the same time, but the amount of Direct Fire weps and Indirect Fire weps in the Village and within effective range of the place is simply staggering, it is a wonder anyone on either side survived the fighting.
 

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The difference is that they said they were reducing the numbers for historical reasons. Whereas it doesn't sound like there is any need to.
 

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The difference is that they said they were reducing the numbers for historical reasons. Whereas it doesn't sound like there is any need to.
did not know that, but the facts speak for themselves, OB's taken form Objective Ponyri by Martin Nevshemal, Battle of Kursk by Col(Retd) David M Glantz. there really was a lot of stuff fighting within a very small space Jan.
 

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I think they just need an excuse to water the CG down to make it more 'playable'......
 

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I think they just need an excuse to water the CG down to make it more 'playable'......
and I can not agree more with them Jan, the number of units in the area and within 1 Km of the Village was truley mental, ASL would just bog down and would break most peoples PMC if they had to play it by the numbers, having said that I still think it will be a rip roaring CG.
 

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and I can not agree more with them Jan, the number of units in the area and within 1 Km of the Village was truley mental, ASL would just bog down and would break most peoples PMC if they had to play it by the numbers, having said that I still think it will be a rip roaring CG.
lol. Yes you are probably right. :thumbsup:
 

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and I can not agree more with them Jan, the number of units in the area and within 1 Km of the Village was truley mental, ASL would just bog down and would break most peoples PMC if they had to play it by the numbers, having said that I still think it will be a rip roaring CG.
Just send them a copy of my CG!
 

Vinnie

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Definitely! If you want to rising close quarters fighting with a dash of outflanking then To Catch a Train has it in spades!
 

Jazz

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I think they just need an excuse to water the CG down to make it more 'playable'......
Having playtest the whole hog CG, they don't need an excuse. Way too counter dense to be fun.

It becomes a management exercise and I do (or at least did....I am recently retired) that for someone else who paid me cash money to do it.

If memory serves, your solution always seems to be doubling the OOB.......
 

Honza

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Having playtest the whole hog CG, they don't need an excuse. Way too counter dense to be fun.
It would be nice to try it non the less.

It becomes a management exercise and I do (or at least did....I am recently retired) that for someone else who paid me cash money to do it.
Congratulations on your retirement. I hope you have a great time.

If memory serves, your solution always seems to be doubling the OOB.......
Only as long as doubling the OOB doesn't ruin the balance and structure of the CG. It works fine with Red Barricades and I hope it will work with Ponyri if need be.
 

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Actually, a big chunk of the counter clutter (not all, but a lot) was fortifications (trenches, 3-4 types of mines, wire, all multiple hexes deep in fortified belts). If they could print a lot of that stuff on the map, counter density would go a long way toward manageable. Of course, that means that the players lose a certain amount of control over location and arrangement of fortified belts....which given the complexity of the Russian set up restrictions might go a long ways toward making things a bit more simple?
 
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