The Meat Grinder Discussion Thread

Tuomo

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OK, so we start up again tomorrow at 0900 Mountain Time, so I should probably figure out what The Plan is.

I remember briefly looking at the board setup a few days after we ended the first session and felt like there were points to be had there. Whereas at the end of the session itself, I was pretty ground down and treading water. The dominant feeling was that the Lesser Russian Tanks were still dead meat whenever the PzIII's felt like chasing them down, the KV-2s were on their last legs, and I didn't have an advantage anywhere.

With a 2-week break, things seem a touch less critical, if still dire. What strikes me is the vulnerability of the German infantry:
  • I might be able to bring a squad up to R1 and threaten that HS, perhaps even freeing the Russian Prisoners they're guarding
  • If neither of the German squads in T4 rally, they're vulnerable to the Russian armor swinging around and surrounding them, killing them for FTR at 4 CVP
  • Those HS's in M4 and N4 are another 2 CVP that should be easy to bag, with the Russian tanks and infantry right there
  • Even the squad in N5 looks unsupported, and the building he controls would be nice to have back.
A lot depends on what happens when the KV-2 in Q5 starts up. (That was a huge event, by the way, when that 467 passed its PAATC to get into the KV-2's hex. If he had failed, the KV-2 was already pointing at the two PzIIIs next door, and I'm thinking one of them would have gone down in Prep Fire.)

I have reason to hope the KV-2 will survive the shots from the PzIIIs and the CCRF from the 467; the PzIIIs may hit the front turret facing, and the 467 would be CC'ing a Non-Stopped vehicle.

Assuming he survives the Start attempt, he will change VCA and exit the buiding into R5, where he will hopefully survive the inevitable Street Fighting attempt from R4. Assuming all of THAT goes well (including the Bog check for changing VCA in Q5, necessary to avoid the Street Fighting from the 9-2 in P5 or Q6), the KV-2 will park itself quietly in T5, where he will keep those two German squads DM AND be in LOS from R2, preventing R2 from self-breaking and routing back to R3 or S3.

In short, it's an awesome move that only has to pass a series of probable events in order to succeed. What could go wrong? :)

If that works, then it would be easy to zoom the BT-7 over from I1 to T3, completing the encirclement of T4. Sure, Huey would be vulnerable to the PzIIIs next turn, but we'd have those tasty 4 CVP of German squads to carry us through that awkward moment.

With that complete, then some infantry run into R1, prepping to CC the HS there as long as we can keep it from self-breaking to safety. We could conceivably dash the 9-0 and 527 into Q3 with the notion of CC'ing either R2 or either PzIII, as well.

The other KV-2 (who's getting close to feeling the need to repair his MA, but won't do it this turn because he can still be useful without it) will probably relocate to M5, where he'll keep the HS in N4 and M4 from self-breaking to safety while helping to encircle both with his MGs in the AFPh. That leaves the tank in M3 and the 447 in O5 to cause what damage they can.

There's also the verdammt 9-1 and HMG combo, who admirably scared the Germans away from attacking down the left side of the board in the pregame, but has yet to do anything in the GAME game. Methinks it's time for them to show some Moxie.

There's also the potential to pressure the two exposed German HS's on board 49, bagging them for CVP while retaking those buildings. That in fact might be the safest play, as even the BT7s could play a helpful role in VBM freezing the Germans, but we'll see what shakes out with the other moves first. If I lose that first KV2 in Q5, then I'll likely leave the two brokies in T4 alone and settle for beating up on the HS's on the left flank while pressuring the ones on board 49. On the other hand, those PzIIIs would still be pretty vulnerable to CC from Russian infantry (squad+leader CCV of 6, -1 DRM for Street Fighting, perhaps another -1 DRM if the 9-1 gets involved) and if I'm in a vindictive mood, perhaps that'd be the better response. We'll see.

So, yeah, I've got some counter-punches available that, quite frankly, I was really not seeing at the end of Session 1. If the dice are with me, we can really hurt the German infantry and give the Russians a VP lead that may be tough to overcome. Stay tuned!
 

Doug Leslie

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I have reason to hope the KV-2 will survive the shots from the PzIIIs and the CCRF from the 467; the PzIIIs may hit the front turret facing, and the 467 would be CC'ing a Non-Stopped vehicle.
As I understand it, the KV-2 will not meet the definition of "non-stopped" in this situation.

C.8 MOVING VEHICULAR TARGET: A vehicle is considered a moving target for To Hit/Effects purposes only if during the current Player Turn it has entered a new hex, or used VBM (D2.3), or began its MPh in Motion (D2.4), or is currently in Motion. A Stopped (D2.13) vehicle is also treated as a moving target [errata included] if during the current Player Turn it has entered a new hex, used VBM, or began its MPh in Motion. Thus a Non-Stopped vehicle is a moving, Mobile (D.7) vehicle that has not expended a Stop MP (D2.13) since its last Start MP (D2.12) expenditure.

The KV-2 isn't a moving target until it leaves the hex so its CCRF survival chances aren't quite as high as you hope. :(
 
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Tuomo

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Doug - I think the rule you quoted supports the notion of the KV2 being non-stopped.
 

Doug Leslie

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Doug - I think the rule you quoted supports the notion of the KV2 being non-stopped.
I don't think it does.

"2.12 STARTING: A vehicle not under a Motion counter must expend one MP to start movement before entering a new hex or changing its VCA during the MPh. Unless Reverse Movement (2.2) is declared, forward movement is assumed. The Starting MP expenditure is considered to take place in the currently occupied hex (thereby making it subject to Defensive First Fire in that hex although not as a moving target; C.8)"

To meet the definition of "non-stopped", the AFV has to have been moving/in motion previously. Expending a start MP at the beginning of its MPh does not per se make it a moving target. It would be different if it entered a hex, stopped, and then re-started as it would then meet the "moving" requirement of the definition. The point of the creation of the concept of "stopped/non-stopped" in addition to "moving" appears to be to make vehicles subject to Case L and more vulnerable to CC reaction fire if they come to a halt during movement but allowing them to retain the protection of Case J.
 
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Sparafucil3

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:(


I don't think it does.

"2.12 STARTING: A vehicle not under a Motion counter must expend one MP to start movement before entering a new hex or changing its VCA during the MPh. Unless Reverse Movement (2.2) is declared, forward movement is assumed. The Starting MP expenditure is considered to take place in the currently occupied hex (thereby making it subject to Defensive First Fire in that hex although not as a moving target; C.8)"

To meet the definition of "non-stopped", the AFV has to have been moving/in motion previously. Expending a start MP at the beginning of its MPh does not per se make it a moving target. It would be different if it entered a hex, stopped, and then re-started as it would then meet the "moving" requirement of the definition. The point of the creation of the concept of "stopped/non-stopped" in addition to "moving" appears to be to make vehicles subject to Case L and more vulnerable to CC reaction fire if they come to a halt during movement but allowing them to retain the protection of Case J.
@Tuomo mentions the Non-Stopped vehicle and references a CC-Reaction Fire. In that context, the 4-6-7 will gain a +2 DRM against the Non-Stopped KV-2 in CC if the 4-6-7 passes it's PAATC. So in that respect, he is spot on.

You have confused your rules here a little. A vehicle can be Non-Stopped and not be a Moving Target. Conversely, a vehicle can be a Moving Target and Stopped. All it takes to be Non-Stopped is to spend a Start MP. It is even defined in the index:

Non-Stopped (a vehicle, during its MPh, that has not expended a Stop MP since its last Start MP expenditure): C.8

In its MPh, once it spends a Start, it is Non-Stopped. It is still not a Moving Target (Case J) but it is Non-stopped [e.g. Case L would be NA, a +2 DRM for Motion/Non-Stopped would apply in CC].

Understanding the Difference between Stopped/Non-Stopped and Moving Target/Non-Moving Target is the key to proper application of Case J and Case L. It would make for an interesting mini-article. -- jim
 

Doug Leslie

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@Tuomo mentions the Non-Stopped vehicle and references a CC-Reaction Fire. In that context, the 4-6-7 will gain a +2 DRM against the Non-Stopped KV-2 in CC if the 4-6-7 passes it's PAATC. So in that respect, he is spot on.

You have confused your rules here a little. A vehicle can be Non-Stopped and not be a Moving Target. Conversely, a vehicle can be a Moving Target and Stopped. All it takes to be Non-Stopped is to spend a Start MP. It is even defined in the index:

Non-Stopped (a vehicle, during its MPh, that has not expended a Stop MP since its last Start MP expenditure): C.8

In its MPh, once it spends a Start, it is Non-Stopped. It is still not a Moving Target (Case J) but it is Non-stopped [e.g. Case L would be NA, a +2 DRM for Motion/Non-Stopped would apply in CC].

Understanding the Difference between Stopped/Non-Stopped and Moving Target/Non-Moving Target is the key to proper application of Case J and Case L. It would make for an interesting mini-article. -- jim
The index doesn't quote the rule in full.

A non-stopped vehicle is defined as a moving, mobile vehicle that has not expended as Stop MP since its last Start MP expenditure.

The KV-2 will meet the the second part of the definition (it hasn't expended a Stop MP since its last Start MP) but not the first (because it is not yet a moving vehicle).

I thought that the rule was fairly clear but I am starting to have my doubts when experienced players such as yourself and Tuomo are taking a different view! What am I missing?
 

Sparafucil3

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The index doesn't quote the rule in full.

A non-stopped vehicle is defined as a moving, mobile vehicle that has not expended as Stop MP since its last Start MP expenditure.

The KV-2 will meet the the second part of the definition (it hasn't expended a Stop MP since its last Start MP) but not the first (because it is not yet a moving vehicle).

I thought that the rule was fairly clear but I am starting to have my doubts when experienced players such as yourself and Tuomo are taking a different view! What am I missing?
Moving =/= Moving Target. Only one Unit at a time is ever Moving: the Unit currently Conducting ITS MPh. So once Tuomo says "Start for 1", that KV-2 is Moving (i.e. conducting ITS MPh) fulfilling the second half of the rule. Thus a vehicle conducting ITS MPh can be Stopped/Non-Stopped or a Moving Target/Non-Moving Target. It may never be in Motion. A vehicle not conducting ITS MPh can be either Motion or Non-Motion. It can also be a Moving Target or a Non-Moving depending on when you're firing at it and if it is currently covered by a Motion Counter. It cannot be Stopped or Non-Stopped outside ITS MPh.

Maybe I will write a short two-pager in this. I have been answering these types of questions for as long as I have been here on GS. -- jim

Edit to add: I don't know if the term "Moving" is defined in the rulebook someplace. It may be in Q&A. There is this from the ASOP:
ASOP said:
The MPh Sequence of Play is expressed separately in terms of THE MPh and of each moving unit’s (or stack’s) MPh; i.e., each moving unit has a START, DURING and END to ITS MPh within the overall context of THE MPh—usually followed by the START of another unit’s (or stack’s) MPh. However, the MPh of all units that start THE MPh berserk must be completed before any non-berserk unit may start ITS MPh, and the MPh of all non-berserk units that start THE MPh on the ground (i.e., non-Aerial) must be completed before any Glider/Parachute may start ITS MPh.
 
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BattleSchool

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From Ole Boe's article "Stop and Go Traffic" in ASL Annual '96:

EXAMPLE: A Stopped vehicle expends a Start MP during its own MPh. It immediately becomes Non-Stopped, but is not a Moving Target. If it enters a new hex, then it becomes a Moving Target. If the vehicle stops during its MPh either as the result of an enemy attack or by expending a Stop MP, it becomes Stopped, but remains a Moving Target since it has entered a new hex during that Player Turn.

EXAMPLE: A Stopped vehicle expends a Start MP during its own MPh and immediately becomes Non-Stopped, but this time it neither moves to a new hex nor stops, but uses its remaining MP to change its VCA. This does not make the vehicle a Moving Target. As soon as its MPh ends however, it becomes in Motion and a Moving Target.
 
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Doug Leslie

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Beat me to it after I had dug out the same article! I don't know how authoritative it is but the second example seems to take a different view from my interpretation. I still can't square it with the "moving" requirement.
 
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Sparafucil3

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Beat me to it after I had dug out the same article! I don't know how authoritative it is but the second example seems to support my argument.
If you accept the vehicle is now Non-Stopped, looking at your QRDC will show CC mods of +2 against Motion/Non-Stopped vehicles which supports Tuomo's position of being harder to kill. -- jim
 

Sparafucil3

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Beat me to it after I had dug out the same article! I don't know how authoritative it is but the second example seems to take a different view from my interpretation. I still can't square it with the "moving" requirement.
I have not read Ole's article in a long time. When it was written, it was quite good but I am fairly certain some of the rules it relied on have changed in the time since. I would have to look at it again to tell you what has changed in the decades since it was written. A better (IMO) and more modern article is Crosstown Traffic by Carl Noguierra. I don't recall if it touched on this specific topic but it has a lot in it concerning Vehicular targeting in multiple scenarios. -- jim
 

asloser

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If you accept the vehicle is now Non-Stopped, looking at your QRDC will show CC mods of +2 against Motion/Non-Stopped vehicles which supports Tuomo's position of being harder to kill. -- jim
And that's the way we played it.

I had a look at Ole Bies article about a months ago and I still think it is valuable reading to get you on the right track.
 

Doug Leslie

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I have not read Ole's article in a long time. When it was written, it was quite good but I am fairly certain some of the rules it relied on have changed in the time since. I would have to look at it again to tell you what has changed in the decades since it was written. A better (IMO) and more modern article is Crosstown Traffic by Carl Noguiera. I don't recall if it touched on this specific topic but it has a lot in it concerning Vehicular targeting in multiple scenarios. -- jim
Crosstown Traffic focuses on overruns so no debate there whether vehicles are "moving" or not!
I am persuaded that I was mistakenly conflating "moving" with "moving target". I seldom read this forum without learning something new!
 

Tuomo

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And that's the way we played it.

I had a look at Ole Bies article about a months ago and I still think it is valuable reading to get you on the right track.
Earlier in the game, a Very Brave HS was in CC with one of the KV2s and rolled really low. I thought the tank was dead but Mr. Lukkari reminded us of this +2 DRM for non-stopped, and the tank lived. Big Integrity Points for my Finnish friend.
 

william.stoppel

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Moving =/= Moving Target. Only one Unit at a time is ever Moving: the Unit currently Conducting ITS MPh. So once Tuomo says "Start for 1", that KV-2 is Moving (i.e. conducting ITS MPh) fulfilling the second half of the rule. Thus a vehicle conducting ITS MPh can be Stopped/Non-Stopped or a Moving Target/Non-Moving Target. It may never be in Motion. A vehicle not conducting ITS MPh can be either Motion or Non-Motion. It can also be a Moving Target or a Non-Moving depending on when you're firing at it and if it is currently covered by a Motion Counter. It cannot be Stopped or Non-Stopped outside ITS MPh.

Maybe I will write a short two-pager in this. I have been answering these types of questions for as long as I have been here on GS. -- jim

Edit to add: I don't know if the term "Moving" is defined in the rulebook someplace. It may be in Q&A. There is this from the ASOP:
You should definitely write that article Jim. I remember when you taught me this one!
 

RandyT0001

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You should definitely write that article Jim. I remember when you taught me this one!
I agree. Write it, have it proofread, then post it in the resource section here for immediate access to the community.
 

asloser

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Earlier in the game, a Very Brave HS was in CC with one of the KV2s and rolled really low. I thought the tank was dead but Mr. Lukkari reminded us of this +2 DRM for non-stopped, and the tank lived. Big Integrity Points for my Finnish friend.
Is that like a 152 mm HE shell size big?
 
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