The LotRO Store & Turbine Points

[jwb3]

The question is how many of those people who payed money this month did one-time payments and will never pay again. A so-called Premium player pays no monthly subscription, but he can buy storage, quest packs, horses etc. Buy once and then use it in gameplay forever without forking out another cent.

Sure, though a proper business model will take that into account. (Whether it will do so successfully is, of course, another matter.)

As a matter of fact the majority of items in the store are pay once, use forever. How many people will pop potions that cost real-world money in every fight? Ah that's right. You just make the fight hard enough so that the weaker in-game potions don't cut it...

Ah, but DDO presents another possibility -- one which presents hope for the LOTRO Fellowships, as I understand them.

In DDO several characters can join together to form a party; heck, it wouldn't be D&D without the party, would it? Just as in the p&p game, a party isn't really optimal unless it has all the roles filled; fighter to tank, cleric to heal, mage for crowd control, and rogue to get past doors and traps.

Still, within some limits, every class has the potential to do a solo career. Each quest can be completed at several different difficulties, and most classes can manage to solo most quests reasonably well at Normal difficulty, though some may require the occasional NPC hireling (who are pretty cheap in in-game coinage).

But soloing a quest at Hard is a lot tougher, and at Elite it's nearly impossible. So if you have an in-game reason to complete a certain quest on Elite, with your normally-solo character, you can always form a temporary party with a bunch of strangers who have the same goal.

Of course some people want to play by themselves, and never make contact with a real live human being in their MMO experience... and for them there are all sorts of DDO Store options; extra hirelings to fill out the party roles, stat-enhancing potions, etc. But the point is that if you want to not spend money, in DDO you have the option of winning the harder fights by teaming up.

Sure, there will be some people in the new LOTRO who will choose to buy their way through the game without ever going near a Fellowship... but Turbine really can't afford to make the game so hard that people have to both operate as part of a Fellowship and spend money on gear at the store. They'd lose too much of their audience if they forced the loners to be social. So it seems to me that there will always be two routes to success: the one that involves spending real money, and the one that involves cooperation among players. Only people who are hopeless at both are going to be truly screwed.


John

 

[Palantir]

After having played last night, first since F2P went live, I quickly noticed something- I could care less now what the players around me are wearing. Before you could tell some of a player’s accomplishments & efforts just by looking at what they had. I could look and see someone wearing Forochel garb & at once know, “ah they completed all the deeds in that frozen wasteland,” but now, who cares? For all I know they bought it from the store or even with skirmish marks.
A lot of the interaction & fun has been taken away from the community.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

After having played last night, first since F2P went live, I quickly noticed something- I could care less now what the players around me are wearing. Before you could tell some of a player’s accomplishments & efforts just by looking at what they had. I could look and see someone wearing Forochel garb & at once know, “ah they completed all the deeds in that frozen wasteland,” but now, who cares? For all I know they bought it from the store or even with skirmish marks.
A lot of the interaction & fun has been taken away from the community.

Talk about ass backwards. If I was going to spend "money", I would have done it on stuff like extra storage space for stuff I "earned." You've seen the house I bought. It looks like everyone else's in Middle Earth. So why would anyone ever want to visit it? The cookie cutter community it sits in is unremarkable, and there are a handful of slots to put the same old crap eveyrone else has in it.

I would pay money for the ability to truly customize it, build it big enough to put my stuff in.

I'd also pay for the ability to make truly customizable clothing - not just dye, but cut, perhaps custom logo - the way medieval warriors painted coats of arms on their shields, etc. I know you'd have to vet those so you weren't putting obscene stuff into the game, but with money changing hands, they'd have the ability to monitor that.

It would increase the communty feeling and still net them their precious dollars, though probably not in the amounts they are getting now. Though honestly, I hope this new income model falls on its behind.

 

[Redwolf]

All this would be all right if LOTRO would be a game that is actually suitable for just going through the storyline (and other quests) as a kind of interactive movie.

But it's not quite there either. The part of the epic storyline that is in the Trollshaws is - well - epic suck. Every stupid quest in there is either trivial but has you running around for a very long time (e.g. run from Rivendell to the Ford of Bruinen, hold up a stone, get 1700 XP) or it was a former group quest that has been ruined with that half-baken "Inspired greatness" thing which makes you unable to die, is full of bugs and has equally many XPs, plus big XPs from killing enemies that effective can't harm you in "inspired greatness" but still count as if you had killed that elite troll yourself.

The result of that XP blast is that you level up on the epic storyline alone and you can't enjoy the rest of the quests because you now outlevel them.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

So, if I decide to stop paying them, I still get to keep my main "free" character that I've levelled up to 55, right? I just lose the house and extra storage bags/chests, yes?

I think maybe it's time for me to stop subsidizing them with my monthly subscription fees.

 

[Redwolf]

So, if I decide to stop paying them, I still get to keep my main "free" character that I've levelled up to 55, right? I just lose the house and extra storage bags/chests, yes?

You get to keep almost everything, including all bags and other storage you already have on existing characters, except probably the wardrobe.

You lose -probably- 2 character slots (can pick which ones) and the level 25-50 non-epic quests. The wardrobe, probably. Fairly mild.

I think maybe it's time for me to stop subsidizing them with my monthly subscription fees.

I went the other way round. I had canceled to "teach them a lesson" and play free. But by now I have progressed to the opinion that there's no helping them as long as they openly lie. Since there is stuff I still want to see I'm doing it in the most efficient way, which is with a subscription.

I also think it's much more important to not ever buy store points than not paying subscription money. In the unlikely event that they ever come to their senses there should be significant revenue from old-style subscribers.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

You get to keep almost everything, including all bags and other storage you already have on existing characters, except probably the wardrobe.

You lose -probably- 2 character slots (can pick which ones) and the level 25-50 non-epic quests. The wardrobe, probably. Fairly mild.



I went the other way round. I had canceled to "teach them a lesson" and play free. But by now I have progressed to the opinion that there's no helping them as long as they openly lie. Since there is stuff I still want to see I'm doing it in the most efficient way, which is with a subscription.

I also think it's much more important to not ever buy store points than not paying subscription money. In the unlikely event that they ever come to their senses there should be significant revenue from old-style subscribers.

Your logic makes more sense, if - IF - they keep stats. I made a pledge never to spend a dime in the Turbine Store so I guess I'll do what you're doing. Good call. I'll keep my sub and just keep doing what I'm doing - play the way I started out, i.e. by subscription - and hopefully enough old timers stick around and they actually notice.

I fear it won't make much difference, but we'll see how it plays out, I suppose. I wonder what the stats are on people buying all this new "unearned" stuff from the store. I just can't see what the satisfaction is, but then, I never understood the 1,000 pound guy eating McDonald's 10 times a day either, or the Chinese online junkie who played games 24/7 until his retinas exploded.

But yes - your logic is far more unassailable than mine.

 

[Palantir]

I wouldn't have pointed this out except that Turbine made an emailed of this to brag about it...

An example of how the management at Turbine initially saying, "nothing will be in the store that you can't get in the game nor will it be better than what you can get in the game" was used to win over players to the Stores implementation. But that quickly became as seen, "anything goes to make a dime off F2P players" SOP.

The words "only" & "best" seem to be a contradiction to their original announcement about the store.

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I don't care to use the store but I am getting tired of them pushing it in my face at every opportunity: splashing it across every load up screen, offering the "store button" below every in-game panel encouraging me to spend points to "enhance my game," getting TP's after doing every quest or deed and then making it a special pop up button on my screen to let me know, sending me emails touting the latest best buy and then more Emails just to tell me the store exists for my gaming pleasure...

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If only the management would get out of the way so the designers can keep the game at an A+ level as in the new Yule Festival design.

Edit- This was interesting & goes with the F2P deal:

I joined a with 2 other high level players the other night and we're off doing "X" quest. Later I type in "20 more to go" and wouldn't get a reply, then later type "15 more" etc. etc. Finally I type in "one more place to go" and they reply "what the heck are you talking about?"
I said, "locations" we're supposed to be finding places inside this instance."

After a very lengthy back & forth over just what we're supposed to be doing in this "quest" it turns out that both of them are F2P'er and were not offered the "deed" to find locations that went along with the quest.

So for well over an hour I had been running around & looking for the "locations" as I was also doing the quest with them and they had not even known (I must have looked like an idiot to them running everywhere for seemingly no reason). Apparently they had not bought the "right" quest pack or something; I never did figure it all out.

Anyway- this is exactly the situation we discussed when we first heard about being able to pick & choose what quest packs etc each person wanted to have- and I actually encountered a bit of it. What a mess this can become later if you have more & more players all with different quest packs, bags, expansions (whatever) grouping together and everyone thinking everyone else was doing the same quests & deeds at the same time.

 

[Palantir]

Can this number of views be true? :crosseye:

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If so, some of you need to start commenting or posting with us!!!!

 

[Redwolf]

To me, the new horse which is store-exclusive and a little faster (168 instead of 162% of running speed) is what they should have made the store about.

The store was supposed to be convenience and vain, and no stat boosts. Faster horses (which can not be used in combat) fit this perfectly well. They can knock themselves out adding things like this. Of course the designers who painted this horse have been payed from my VIP money, too, but whatever.

The real cheating on Turbine's part comes in when they do add the ability to find some combat-enhancing items such as the stat tomes inside the game, but make it alibi only. There was a big thread dissecting the drop rate and it has been put to a non-practical rate. So now Turbine can say it does drop but if you want it you still must go to the store. The Überpotions still don't drop at all.

 

[Palantir]

This is interesting store news:

Coming December 17th to the LotRO Store
For a limited time, The Thorin's Hall Goat will be available in the LotRO Store for only 1295TP.
This is your chance to obtain an extremely nice faction steed without having to farm rep. The Thorin's Hall Goat could be a full faction steed and capable of traveling all over Middle-Earth (including the Mines of Moria).
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I mean come on, what are they NOT going to sell in the store for "convenience?" Pretty soon they will be selling "Quest Completion" packs so you don't have to waste time actually doing the quests. :angry:

 

[Palantir]

:hmmm: OVERKILL!!!! :bite:

Ad's I've received in the last 12 days.

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I think that I know theres a store AND a sale GOING ON ALREADY!!!!

:stop:

For crying out loud do we really need to be reminded very other day only that the Turbine Store exists? Only 1 ad didn't mention the Store (2nd Yule Fest Ad).

Combine this with all the load-game screen ad's and in-game "Store reminder" ads that you see every minute you play and you have - OVERKILL! :blab:
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I don't need it thrown at me THIS much. Thank goodness I can ignore some of it as I play.

 

[Redwolf]

Not to mention as a VIP I don't have to buy most of this garbage in the first place, I *already* *paid* for it.

 

[Ganzor]

Sorry to necro the thread, just joined up.

As for the the load screne ads, I created something that helps with that...
http://www.lotrointerface.com/downloads/info483-LoginAdReplacement.html

I was permabanned yesterday on the official forums because I cited specific examples of when Turbine lied about the store. Sapience insists Turbine has never lied, and banned me for spreading misinformation. lol

 

[Palantir]

Welcome aboard!

Like I keep saying- avoid the Official Forums (in any game) and your life is much happier.
Did they delete your post or can you list the thread / link if you can?

I don't care about the store but their relentless pushing of it into every corner of the game and making it the focus of playing the game is frustrating. I still haven't used it.

 

[Ganzor]

The first of my two infractions was in this thread...

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?387471-My-thoughts

My post was deleted, though I did get a modified version of it in that stayed...

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?387471-My-thoughts&p=5291778&highlight=#post5291778

My mistake was remembering the modified screenshots from a dev diary instead of official screenshots. I was dinged for "spreading misinformation" because "there was never a dev diary with removed store buttons". Technicality, but whatever.


My second infraction, that caused me to go over the 10 infraction ever limit was...

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?387538-Thought-on-the-update&p=5291934&highlight=#post5291934

So, where other games without a cash shop constantly add features for no additional charge, you'll be happy if another one never gets added here without having to pay over and above your subscription fee to access it?

You have no problem with uber powerful potions being added to the store, and content designed around having them being developed?

You have no problem with features being taken away and added to store only items (relic recovery) and features previously removed from the game for being too powerful or not consistant with the current design being added back to store only items (effect removal pots).

You have no problem being lied to on a constant basis by the company you deal with for a significant portion of your leisure time (LOTRO's not going free to play, honest! and Convenience not advantage)?

It could even be argued that when the LT fight in mirkwood was being developed, Turbine darn well knew the game was going free to play and designed that fight to make those store pots desireable for that fight. Sure, they're not required but they sure make the whole conserve power portion of it go away.

EDIT- I forgot to even mention them outright selling +50 to every stat in the store. They attempt to justify that by making them rare to the point of absurdity in game, but anybody with a working brain sees that's just an end run around the issue.

The offending line was...

You have no problem being lied to on a constant basis by the company you deal with for a significant portion of your leisure time (LOTRO's not going free to play, honest! and Convenience not advantage)?

Sapience said "Once again posting factually inaccurate information is unacceptable. In addition falsely accusing anyone, player, staff, or Turbine proper of lying will not be tolerated."

In PM exchanges, the last thing Sapience has had to say in defense of himself was "Nobody has lied.". Right before a veiled threat that I need to drop the issue and that the PMs are being added to my player file.

I sent one more asking him how Turbine saying things they know are not true isn't lying, but he has not responded.

I sent one more today telling him that I'll take his inability to answer a simple as conceding the point. I also told him to add to my player file is the fact that he is the reason I cancelled my account last night into my player file. Being broadly lied to by a company is one thing, being lied to and punished for those lies by a representative of that company is another.


It's just a pity my sub recently renewed for 3 months. if they ban me, I'll just call and politely ask for a prorated refund before I dispute the entire charge. hehe

 

[Redwolf]

You got Sapience aka NKVD to actually reply to a p.m.? I'm impressed.

How's the ban going? Are you actually unable to log into the game now?

 

[Ganzor]

It's a forum ban, for now. I can only view my.lotro.com from in game, but only because I haven't logged out of it. if I ever lose that, I suspect the whole of my.lotro.com will be locked out for me.

 

[Redwolf]

Man I envy you. That should improve your game experience a lot.

 

[Ganzor]

They're now at the point of editing anything slightly negative in subject lines too.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?387968-Thoughts-on-VIP

Posted Thread Title: I don't think I get my VIP money out of this anymore.
Edited Thread Title: Thoughts on VIP

This gets more and more silly as time goes on.