The Irrigation Ditch Poll

How do you feel about seeing Irrigation Ditches on geoboards and/or as overlays?

  • Nope. Keep 'em on HASL maps only

    Votes: 11 16.7%
  • Don't want 'em printed on geoboards, don't even want them as overlays

    Votes: 4 6.1%
  • Don't want 'em printed on geoboards, but used as overlays is fine

    Votes: 28 42.4%
  • Sure, printed on geoboards is good

    Votes: 23 34.8%

  • Total voters
    66

jrv

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e) develop a way to remove them from HASL maps. preferably not by using massive overlays or flamethrowers, but do what you have to do. maybe a light with a yellow lightbulb will turn them from blue to sufficiently green that they can't be seen on the map. they ain't called irritation ditches for nothin'.

JR
 
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bprobst

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I don't even want them on HASL maps. They're not quite as irritating or stupid as barbed wire fences, but they're close.
 

von Marwitz

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I would have to look up the rules for Irrigation Ditches to give you an answer to your question. (ring, ring... ;))

I originate from a region where the terrain is such that as a soldier you would be darned glad to have an irrigation ditch to take cover in due to otherwise flat and open ground. So opposed to Bruce, I do believe that they have their justification in ASL in general.

As for the barbed wire fences (such as in KGP). Their effect on inhibiting movement in ASL is exaggerated IMHO. The region I originate from is full of meadows enclosed by such barbed wire fences. Either the detriment to movement in ASL should be lessened or/and they should be easily made "breachable" by spending an extra MF or two. It does not take a minute for a single man to make six cuts to three lines of barbed wire between two fence posts.

von Marwitz
 

Robin Reeve

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Irrigation ditches rules are quite simple.
Much more intuitive than slopes.
I don't mind if some overlays depict them.
Having them on geoboards would make them less adaptable. But one could argue that some geoboards recently published hardly have any use out of the scenario packs they are included in.
So even though I would prefer irrigation ditches not to be present on geoboards, I am not absolutely opposed to the idea.

What I often thought could be interesting, is an SSR saying that roads have ditches on their side : no effect on LOS nor TEM, but moving from or entering a road through a non road hexside would be similar to crossing a hedge - that would slow or block non fully tracked vehicles.
 

Tuomo

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Huh. Glad I asked the question, because I did not anticipate these results.

My main driver was echoed by JR and Robin:
I originate from a region where the terrain is such that as a soldier you would be darned glad to have an irrigation ditch to take cover in due to otherwise flat and open ground.
What I often thought could be interesting, is an SSR saying that roads have ditches on their side...
Exactly. Roads with ditches on either side seem to be a very different kind of terrain than roads without. And they're everywhere. So I'm wondering why they haven't been used anywhere. The artwork would be easy and obvious. And so, if the community thinks it would be useful/interesting, it'd be worth exploring.

Perhaps as an SSR. Such-and-such roads are Ditched. (Have Side Ditches?) No extra cost to Infantry, some minor extra cost to vehicles (depending on their type) when entering the hex via a non-road hexside, etc. Basically the same TEM effect as Shellholes, so I guess we could just use the Shellhole Infantry MF cost.

You could even Flood them when appropriate.
 

Gordon

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Huh. Glad I asked the question, because I did not anticipate these results.

My main driver was echoed by JR and Robin:


Exactly. Roads with ditches on either side seem to be a very different kind of terrain than roads without. And they're everywhere. So I'm wondering why they haven't been used anywhere. The artwork would be easy and obvious. And so, if the community thinks it would be useful/interesting, it'd be worth exploring.

Perhaps as an SSR. Such-and-such roads are Ditched. (Have Side Ditches?) No extra cost to Infantry, some minor extra cost to vehicles (depending on their type) when entering the hex via a non-road hexside, etc. Basically the same TEM effect as Shellholes, so I guess we could just use the Shellhole Infantry MF cost.

You could even Flood them when appropriate.
I'm not even sure artwork is necessary, just go the SSR route. Can't wait to bottom out my armored car crossing an intersection like I did my car in Texas before I realized they don't have storm sewers but just put gullies across the road to channel rain water.
 

von Marwitz

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Exactly. Roads with ditches on either side seem to be a very different kind of terrain than roads without. And they're everywhere. So I'm wondering why they haven't been used anywhere. The artwork would be easy and obvious. And so, if the community thinks it would be useful/interesting, it'd be worth exploring.
My guess would be the following:

If an entire hex is 40 meters across and many times in ASL you would not be moving along the road in such a hex, an Irrigation Ditch next to that road will not help you much if suddenly the metal comes flying in while you are not next to the road.

So as a consequence, the availability of TEM would have to depend on how the unit moves in such a hex. One could say that an "Irrigation Ditch Road" could be considered non-open ground while using the Road Movement rate and thus in such an instance avoiding the -1FFMO drm due to the fact that the soldiers could take cover within an instant in the ditch.

Otherwise, Shellholes (B2.4) come to mind:
"If it expends two MF in entering the hex, or starts the phase therein, it is considered in a shellhole (here: Irrigation Ditch) and not subject to FFMO penalties."

But then there is the issue of the Irridation Ditch being wet or dry (thinking that a frigid stream or ditch will not make a big difference for a soaked soldier in frosty temperatures). And Irrigation Ditches might not be trivial to cross for many vehicles.

So probably, there is no such terrain type as "Irrigation Ditch Road" as to avoid the abovementioned issues.

von Marwitz
 

Paul M. Weir

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Exactly. Roads with ditches on either side seem to be a very different kind of terrain than roads without. And they're everywhere.
That may be true for Ireland, Britain and places like Normandy. Many years ago I was driven through N. France mainly via minor roads and was quite surprised with the lack of ditches more than 6"-9" deep and all having extremely shallow sides. They might bog some low riding cars, but little else. While photos might not capture subtle but ... awkward ... roadside troughs, but it seems to me that areas like Ukraine similarly often lack significant roadside ditches.
 

Tuomo

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So probably, there is no such terrain type as "Irrigation Ditch Road" as to avoid the abovementioned issues
Fah. We all know that "Open Ground" isn't really flat, and The Framers might not have felt like this flavor of road was worth capturing as a special on-map terrain type or even mentioning in the rulebook as a quickie SSR-able option. But given how ubiquitous they are, how easily they could be fit into the system via the Shellhole rules, and how readily they could be injected into Chapter B via SSR or drawn on the map, it sure seems like low-hanging fruit for situations that warrant them. Panjis, these ain't.

MY question was, how do players feel about depicting them on geoboards. Given how many people generally don't like overlays, I'm surprised to see that option polling stronger than the "draw 'em on the map" option.
 

DWPetros

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Preferably, the Road/Ditch artwork would be shown on the map - no overaly, no SSR. I've attempted to have this on some boards by putting a Gully in the hex adjacent to the Road, but its a poor substitute.

But actually producing enough of such boards would be a problem (one board? more? MMP wouldn't go to such trouble to produce or change Chap. B rules just for that I'd think). But its true - such kind of terrain was often found, maybe more so in Normandy than elsewhere, but in Western Europe for sure. Its a cool idea.

I think SSR might work best. That way, you can utilize all the existing boards.
 

Michael Dorosh

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I think many of the respondents aren't even clear what the term refers to. You're talking about entire fields full of ditches (like on the Elst map, also happened outside Carentan and other places). Those things the British call "verges" - roadside ditches - that's something else altogether.
 

Augie

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I'm not even sure artwork is necessary, just go the SSR route. Can't wait to bottom out my armored car crossing an intersection like I did my car in Texas before I realized they don't have storm sewers but just put gullies across the road to channel rain water.
This...A well crafted SSR should do just fine.
 

jrv

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The polder ditches are much more substantial than the average roadside ditch. The average roadside ditch is part-and-parcel of ordinary open ground. This is polder with irritation ditches:

10376

JR
 

Michael Dorosh

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The polder ditches are much more substantial than the average roadside ditch. The average roadside ditch is part-and-parcel of ordinary open ground. This is polder with irritation ditches:
Yes, exactly.
 

von Marwitz

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The polder ditches are much more substantial than the average roadside ditch. The average roadside ditch is part-and-parcel of ordinary open ground. This is polder with irritation ditches:

View attachment 10376

JR
I'd think that Irrigation Dichtes so far in ASL seem to neither represent those polders shown in your picture nor the usual road-side ditch.

Those polders would be technically better represented by ASL Swamp, though you might not be sinking in on the meadow parts of a polder as in actual swamp.

von Marwitz
 

Michael Dorosh

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I'd think that Irrigation Dichtes so far in ASL seem to neither represent those polders shown in your picture nor the usual road-side ditch.

Those polders would be technically better represented by ASL Swamp, though you might not be sinking in on the meadow parts of a polder as in actual swamp.

von Marwitz
One chapter further on from swamp brings you to G8 Rice Paddies which is probably closer to it. G8.12 in particular.
 

Gordon

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From those pictures it looks like they could reclaim a lot of usable ground if they just neatened up and reduced the width of those channels. Very untidy.
:whistle:

Polder-as-paddy complete with bank counter use.
 
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