The French Terror Alert System

RichardS

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Originally posted by PvtManaCoB3MD
You nailed it! :laugh:


except you left out lvl 5: enter onto the side of the victor at the last minute so you can "claim" you "did" something!
I thought that was the Italian model?


Cheers!
:horse:


:toast:
 

hogdriver

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Originally posted by Joisey
Level One: Hide

Level Two: Run

Level Three: Surrender

Level Four: Colloborate

:D
You must have been there before. I was once, and it took me six weeks to delouse.When Dr. S. is in power, France is mine (imagine hideous laugh):scream: :scream: :scream: :scream: :scream:
 

PvtManaCoB3MD

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Originally posted by RStory
I thought that was the Italian model?


Cheers!
:horse:


:toast:
I thought the Italian model was to run away from the advancing army and then claim that you were "leading" the advance!

:laugh:
 

Churchill

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French elan

For military men, a lot of you have very selective memory. The French had powerful military forces with elan centuries before you and the American military became a dream in Washington's eye. From Clovis all the way up to De Gaulle, the French have shown that they know how to fight.

I am amazed the limit of your knowledge of military science and history. You talk about guts....but you never went over the top at Verdun. You talk about guts but you never walked beside some Brit at the Somme, or even the jarheads at Chateau Thierry. Maybe some of you have forgotten, but Frenchmen took the other redoubt at Yorktown. The reduction of Colmar pocket was done primarily by French arms. You look at their defeats, and God knows that, just like us, they've had their share. Gravelot, Sedan, Crecy, Agincourt, Dienbeinphu, just to name a few. But then we've had the Bladenburg Races, or the Surrender of Detroit to think about.

For a web site dedicated to soldiers, sailors and airmen a bit of objectivity might be in order. As to terrorism, the French were fighting it long before we ever woke up to the fact that certain Islamic groups have a grudge against the West. Considering their resources, then and now, they've done a pretty good job of protecting their country.... can you say the same for us.
 

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Again, interesting.

I was just going on about this in the last thread I was reading. The problem here isn't one of differing viewpoints on the question at hand; it's the perception of the material.

As a prime example, I'm a grognard. I've been playing wargames since I could spit, and I must confess to sharing the odd good French joke I've come across. But it's done in good natured fun, just like I'm always the first one to tell my Yankee buddies the latest Canadian joke I've heard.

If people percieve this thread that way, that is going to be the nature of their response as well. And I believe I can safely say that that is how everyone seems to be treating it so far.

I don't really have anything against the French at all, that's why I can tell jokes about them.

But Churchill's take on this thread was different, and coming from your angle, yes, people would come off as being ignorant of a rich (military!) history, etc.

I first considered participating in this thread in a 'humorous' way, and posting a little jpeg I have that takes a good natured shot, but I found the contrast to the other French thread (the one with the poll) such that I couldn't pass up the opportunity to make a more serious-natured post instead.

The difference in perception is often more vital to the discussion at hand, than the material being discussed. As an example, I agree wholeheartedly with Churchill's post on the French having a rich tradition; they do.

That, however, does not mean I will ever stop telling jokes about them!

And had I posted prior to Churchill's post, instead of after; well then, I'd be (in his eyes as he read the thread over), a person ignorant of the true situation, one quite capable of making uninformed decisions based on little real evidence or knowledge. And, from his particular standpoint, it would appear that he's correct, even though that is not the case.

So pardon my rant, I'm not giving anyone hell. :crazy: I'm just easily amused tonite when I notice a little tiny thread sticking out of the sweater of communication that bolluxes the whole thing up. :laugh:
 

Churchill

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Apology

Shane...my apologies. But I get a bit bent out of shape by people thinking the we (the Americans) have the only decent military and military history.

Its not just the frogs,( I spent five years living among them, walking the fields of Verdun, and Mars Le Tour, ). There are so many other nations with substantial military histories and great bravery. The study of military science should be objective, free from prejudice which would cloud decisionmaking.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with pointing up shortcomings in a nations military operations, equipment, or even grand strategy...but demeaning their warriors should be beneath the dignity of anyone claiming to a student of military history. We have every reason to be proud of our military forces. but like every other nation in the world there have been periods when the American soldier did not quite measured up to the call. These periods require fair and unbiased analysis, not jingoism.
 
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Re: French elan

Originally posted by Churchill
For military men, a lot of you have very selective memory. The French had powerful military forces with elan centuries before you and the American military became a dream in Washington's eye. From Clovis all the way up to De Gaulle, the French have shown that they know how to fight.

I am amazed the limit of your knowledge of military science and history. You talk about guts....but you never went over the top at Verdun. You talk about guts but you never walked beside some Brit at the Somme, or even the jarheads at Chateau Thierry. Maybe some of you have forgotten, but Frenchmen took the other redoubt at Yorktown. The reduction of Colmar pocket was done primarily by French arms. You look at their defeats, and God knows that, just like us, they've had their share. Gravelot, Sedan, Crecy, Agincourt, Dienbeinphu, just to name a few. But then we've had the Bladenburg Races, or the Surrender of Detroit to think about.

For a web site dedicated to soldiers, sailors and airmen a bit of objectivity might be in order. As to terrorism, the French were fighting it long before we ever woke up to the fact that certain Islamic groups have a grudge against the West. Considering their resources, then and now, they've done a pretty good job of protecting their country.... can you say the same for us.
As you mention the French have produced some fine military men. Lord knows Napoleon has been studied more in depth that possibly any other historical leader.

I don't think the comments seen in these forums are directed at the historical figures you mention, but more at the present day French who seem to forget who bailed out their collective butts in two World Wars, the second of which probably would never have occurred if said French were not so harsh in the terms they demanded of the Germans in the Treaty of Versailles.
 
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Re: Re: French elan

Originally posted by Lance Williams
As you mention the French have produced some fine military men. Lord knows Napoleon has been studied more in depth that possibly any other historical leader.

I don't think the comments seen in these forums are directed at the historical figures you mention, but more at the present day French who seem to forget who bailed out their collective butts in two World Wars, the second of which probably would never have occurred if said French were not so harsh in the terms they demanded of the Germans in the Treaty of Versailles.
Agreed - the French of today are not the same as the French of the past. I think everyone is aware of my views on the matter.

Dr. S.
 

Churchill

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Hogwash! The French soldier of today is made up of exactly the same mettle that took his great grandfather over the top at Verdun, or the Battle of the Marne, or on the Field of Eylau. To claim otherwise is to deny that those minutemen at Lexington and Concord were not cut from the same cloth of those who stood their ground on Corregidor or Bataan, Bastogne, or Hamburger Hill. This silly idea that the nature of war and warriors changes is just that. Technology changes but not the guts to look em in the eye. Given the right leadership the French fight well, as do the Germans, the Brits, even the Italians. We have a jaudiced view because we've been allowed to view the world in our own rose colored glasses...Gentlemen, contrary to what you might think...the world did not start in 1776!

Secondly get over this simplistic idea that "we bailed them out". If that was the case then we sure as hell bided our time to do it. Did we dispatch forces in l939. Did America send fleets of bombers as Dalidier requested.....hell no. We sat quietly, alledgedly neutral while Hitler gobbled up most of Europe. When we finally entered the war it was not to bail out the French, or the British, or the Danes, etc, etc, etc, it was to put an end to Nazi tryanny in Europe and Japanese aggression in the Pacific that threatened OUR way of life. So stop patting yourself on the back when no congratulations are in order. Your forebears did what they had to do...nothing more nothing less. You don't get medals for doing your job. Just because America's military stand pretty close to the top of the heap doesn't mean you have the right to demean the honor and dignity of other forces across the world. Its dishonest and its self-serving. Grow up!
 
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Originally posted by Churchill
Hogwash! The French soldier of today is made up of exactly the same mettle that took his great grandfather over the top at Verdun, or the Battle of the Marne, or on the Field of Eylau. To claim otherwise is to deny that those minutemen at Lexington and Concord were not cut from the same cloth of those who stood their ground on Corregidor or Bataan, Bastogne, or Hamburger Hill. This silly idea that the nature of war and warriors changes is just that. Technology changes but not the guts to look em in the eye. Given the right leadership the French fight well, as do the Germans, the Brits, even the Italians. We have a jaudiced view because we've been allowed to view the world in our own rose colored glasses...Gentlemen, contrary to what you might think...the world did not start in 1776!

Secondly get over this simplistic idea that "we bailed them out". If that was the case then we sure as hell bided our time to do it. Did we dispatch forces in l939. Did America send fleets of bombers as Dalidier requested.....hell no. We sat quietly, alledgedly neutral while Hitler gobbled up most of Europe. When we finally entered the war it was not to bail out the French, or the British, or the Danes, etc, etc, etc, it was to put an end to Nazi tryanny in Europe and Japanese aggression in the Pacific that threatened OUR way of life. So stop patting yourself on the back when no congratulations are in order. Your forebears did what they had to do...nothing more nothing less. You don't get medals for doing your job. Just because America's military stand pretty close to the top of the heap doesn't mean you have the right to demean the honor and dignity of other forces across the world. Its dishonest and its self-serving. Grow up!
I assume your comments are directed at me as I was the last one to post derision re' the French - in which case I am of course obliged to point out that I am not speaking as an American, but as an Englishman.

I am thus fully aware that the world did not start in 1776.

I think, after approximately 1,000 years of my country being involved in various wars fighting the French or their forebears, I am probably qualified to reiterate my comments that the French of today are not the same people as the French of Agincourt, the Hundred Years War, Trafalgar, Waterloo - their hearts just aren't in it any more.

Dr. S.
 

Churchill

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Doc...as a Brit you have my deepest respect for the long line of military history to which England can lay claim. Caractacus was but the first of a very long line of stalwart defenders of the Isles.
Canute fed in more spirit, and that Norman bastard paved the way to greatness. But as England stands proud of her heritage, so too can Arminius, Vercingetorix, Clovis and Charlemagne shine through the mists of time to give both the French and the Germans equal right to the paeans of glory. No nation walks alone at the summit of power...not even the US.

As to the French Armed Forces today...they are as good as their leadership. Like Great Britain, France has been seeking its place in the world in an age of technological murder. The limits of power are the limits of resources applied to an end. Just as Britain has regiments of great skill and daring... so too do the French. While their current political leadership appears to have taken the pages from Liddel-Hart to address the obvious disparity between America and Europe (say France) the culmination of near fifity years of political struggle have not rendered the French Republic impotent. You say they lack the heart....the heart is driven by the soul, and France has a very deep soul.
 
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Originally posted by Churchill
As to the French Armed Forces today...they are as good as their leadership. Like Great Britain, France has been seeking its place in the world in an age of technological murder. The limits of power are the limits of resources applied to an end. Just as Britain has regiments of great skill and daring... so too do the French. While their current political leadership appears to have taken the pages from Liddel-Hart to address the obvious disparity between America and Europe (say France) the culmination of near fifity years of political struggle have not rendered the French Republic impotent. You say they lack the heart....the heart is driven by the soul, and France has a very deep soul.
I know what you are trying to say, but I must respectfully disagree.

Putting aside my extreme prejudices for the moment, I don't doubt the bravery of those Frenchman who fought down the centuries. But when you look at how many wars the French actually WON, it seems that their bravery was for nothing. I do not rate French leadership at all.

The French lost the heart and will to really fight for their country after the insane slaughter of The Great War. To a certain extent this is understandable.

This really became evident in World War II. Despite surrender being the absolute last resort in the French code of military conduct, thousands of French soldiers chose to surrender to the invading Nazis in 1940, even though they still had their weapons and they had been given the option to continue fight from Britain's shores.

Of course there will always be diehards, some of the French took up the offer, but from where I'm sitting, on the whole the French have become defeatist by nature.

There is one exception to this - and that is with regards to internal security (as opposed to full-scale war). The French do NOT mess around when it comes to terrorism (eg: ETA) or insurgency - and as much as I hate them, I really have to take my hat off to this approach.

As I say though, I am prejudiced against them, so you probably aren't going to get much of an intelligent debate from me ;) - that happens when you live so close to the blighters and your country has a long legacy of war, hatred and competition. I'm a lost cause. But then, so are the French in my view. :D

Dr. S.
 

Churchill

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French victories

Doc, I completely understand you position. I spent a few years among the frogs and I know the last century has not been a good one for Marianne. But I would disagree that they lost more wars then they've won. Like England, her wars are spread over the centuries and are filled with both victory and defeat. We've had our Little Big Horn and you've had Isandlwana. We've had the Bladensburgs Races and you experienced Singapore. France likewise can point to similar outcomes. That is why we study war. Why it holds us tightly in its grasp. Nothing else in the field of human endeavor comes close to it. Been a pleasure.
 
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