The Finns are too strong

jrv

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At the end of eight hours of play, I had barely scraped out a win in Red Churchills defending as the Finns. My Soviet opponent has crossed the stream mainly by the right bridge (from Finnish perspective), which was not the direction I had expected, as well the center, he had taken the 76 INF group instead of the ISU-122 group I had expected, and he was fighting to take the center factory and exit two vehicles, instead of taking both factories as I had expected. I fought with balky, radioless vehicles, and fanatic squads that would break when a cat in the alley yowled. His grim 4-5-8s and 6-2-8s, when they did break, would pop back up for some more. My opponent sent three tanks to exit. One exited; I couldn't get any defenders over in time. One got shattered by a PSK--no surprise there, and one--the difference between winning and losing, the game decider--I killed by two half-squads advancing in for CC against a Motion vehicle, and one of them rolling a snakeeyes followed by a dr of two (A11.501 UNLIKELY KILL).

The game was over, and it was time for the post-game assessment. A bit of insight into the proceedings that might give this draining, desperately-played scenario some meaning. If he had said, "wow, that was well-played; a brilliant defense" I would of course have immediately called for an ambulance because the first few minutes are always crucial when treating a stroke victim. If he had said the much more plausible (and true), "I can't believe how lucky you are" or "why don't they playtest these scenarios," I wouldn't have paid any attention. If he had spoken the always-true and ever-applicable-to-any-result, "this game sucks," I could have sympathized. But no, in a day of unexpected things, my opponent ended reduced the game to his truly unexpected analysis, "the Finns are too strong." After having wiped my forces out of the central factory, where I had hoped to hold out until it became clear that the Soviet infantry juggernaut were able to blast anything that moved in there, after having barely killed the other exiting tank with a truly lucky DR and dr, the root cause of his loss was that the Finns have too much going for them.

So there you have the assessment: the Finns need to be toned down a little. They need to be dialed back a bit. We ardently plea that in the Finnish nationality notes the following be added: "UNLIKELY KILL N/A: A11.501 is n/a to the Finns." Without "unlikely kill" the Finns will no longer be able to run amok over all the other nationalities. That is our judgement.

JR
 
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Gunner Scott

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I have played this one three times, I like it a lot but it is seriously tough for the Russians to get across those bridges, even with the INF gun or Churchill Sm's smoke the Russians will eventually have to face down a 75 ATG (this the primo buy for the Finns), 76L AA gun, a plethora of AT capable 338's and PSK's. As with most run forest run scenarios, the Russian are hamstrung by limited time and the need to get across the Bridges. If the Russians make a major push across one bridge, that relieves the other Finn sectors to converge on the main Russian attack. On the other hand, (which I tried) attack across all three bridges will just result in the Russians not having enough to overcome the Finn defences across each bridge point. In each my playing, we never got past turn 4 for the Finn reinforcements to have an effect. I think one more turn would greatly improve the scenario balance but I understand that most designers want to see their scenarios in tourneys and making it 8 turns would pretty much kill any chance for tourney play.

Scott
 

Robin Reeve

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The Finns are too strong if the designer doesn't know how to make a balanced scenario.
Especially since HP offers less powerful Finnish squads.
 

Jacometti

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At the end of eight hours of play, I had barely scraped out a win in Red Churchills defending as the Finns.

So there you have the assessment: the Finns need to be toned down a little. They need to be dialed back a bit. We ardently plea that in the Finnish nationality notes the following be added: "UNLIKELY KILL N/A: A11.501 is n/a to the Finns." Without "unlikely kill" the Finns will no longer be able to run amok over all the other nationalities. That is our judgement.

JR
I think what you are really saying is that it is pretty closely balanced......

gotta love this game.
 

Jacometti

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I have played this one three times, I like it a lot but it is seriously tough for the Russians to get across those bridges, even with the INF gun or Churchill Sm's smoke the Russians will eventually have to face down a 75 ATG (this the primo buy for the Finns), 76L AA gun, a plethora of AT capable 338's and PSK's. As with most run forest run scenarios, the Russian are hamstrung by limited time and the need to get across the Bridges. If the Russians make a major push across one bridge, that relieves the other Finn sectors to converge on the main Russian attack. On the other hand, (which I tried) attack across all three bridges will just result in the Russians not having enough to overcome the Finn defences across each bridge point. In each my playing, we never got past turn 4 for the Finn reinforcements to have an effect. I think one more turn would greatly improve the scenario balance but I understand that most designers want to see their scenarios in tourneys and making it 8 turns would pretty much kill any chance for tourney play.

Scott
I think an attack across all three bridges is not an option, because it defeats the power of massed strength and the ability to take some losses at the chokepoint. Interdicting shifting Finnish units is valuable, but you cannot really leave too much behind the stream to achieve it.

Whether to attack across one or two bridges and with what relative forces is very much dependent on the Finnish setup and the intention of the Russian attacker - in particular whether he hopes to exit a significant number of AFVs.

Personally, I really like to fire Smoke with the INF gun, Intensive Fire some more smoke with the same gun, then bring on the Churchills CE for their sM (all one one bridge), send a few Assault Engineer squads in to place Infantry Smoke - and then Human Wave across one single bridge with 14 squads.

It might not work, but it surely makes a point about your commitment.
 

Sparafucil3

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I think an attack across all three bridges is not an option, because it defeats the power of massed strength and the ability to take some losses at the chokepoint. Interdicting shifting Finnish units is valuable, but you cannot really leave too much behind the stream to achieve it.

Whether to attack across one or two bridges and with what relative forces is very much dependent on the Finnish setup and the intention of the Russian attacker - in particular whether he hopes to exit a significant number of AFVs.

Personally, I really like to fire Smoke with the INF gun, Intensive Fire some more smoke with the same gun, then bring on the Churchills CE for their sM (all one one bridge), send a few Assault Engineer squads in to place Infantry Smoke - and then Human Wave across one single bridge with 14 squads.

It might not work, but it surely makes a point about your commitment.
I agree with this. Crossing the bridges isn't easy, but once across in force, it is a very different ball game for the Finns. Anyone complaining about playtesting, I played it twice in earlier versions as the Finns. Trust me, it isn't easy on the Finns at all. -- jim
 

Gunner Scott

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I like this scenario a lot, and maybe it was bad play or something on our parts. I don't think it is unbalanced, just has a deep learning curve.

Scott

I think what you are really saying is that it is pretty closely balanced......

gotta love this game.
 

Tuomo

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So there you have the assessment: the Finns need to be toned down a little. They need to be dialed back a bit. We ardently plea that in the Finnish nationality notes the following be added: "UNLIKELY KILL N/A: A11.501 is n/a to the Finns." Without "unlikely kill" the Finns will no longer be able to run amok over all the other nationalities. That is our judgement.
* TA-DAAH *

The ASL Gods have granted your Once-In-A-Lifetime-Wish. Most people would have used it to have consequence-free carnal relations with any celebrity of their choice, or perhaps to gain everlasting weath and comfort, but I'm sure you'll be happy with your choice.
 

jrv

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* TA-DAAH *

The ASL Gods have granted your Once-In-A-Lifetime-Wish. Most people would have used it to have consequence-free carnal relations with any celebrity of their choice, or perhaps to gain everlasting weath and comfort, but I'm sure you'll be happy with your choice.
Since pretty much the only ASL celebrity is Curt Schilling, I think I'll take the goat in this case, Monty.

JR
 

Bob Miller

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I played this each way with Holst. In both cases the attacker would not have won even without the Finnish reinforcements showing up. Kabash the reinforcements and this might be fairer for the bridge crossing attacker.
 

Bob Miller

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At the end of eight hours of play, I had barely scraped out a win in Red Churchills defending as the Finns. JR
Eight hours ?!?!?! Did you guys stop to watch the HBO Band of Brothers mini-series during the game? Actually I got to turn six when I attacked before throwing in the towel. That was about 2:35 minutes of playing time. The second playing Holst threw in the towel when I whacked his KV Flametank in turn five movement phase. That was after work on Thursday. I got to Holst's house after work around 6:45 (I had to set up the defense when I got there as I attacked the previous playing) and I was back in my car going home at 9:05. Thus about 2:15 of playing time.

Play fast. Play more.
 

jrv

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I played this each way with Holst. In both cases the attacker would not have won even without the Finnish reinforcements showing up. Kabash the reinforcements and this might be fairer for the bridge crossing attacker.
I think somehow you are missing something. The Soviets are mucho-strong. Just my opinion, but I think it may favor the Soviets, although only slightly. I will gladly take the Soviets against all challengers.

JR
 

jrv

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Eight hours ?!?!?! Did you guys stop to watch the HBO Band of Brothers mini-series during the game? Actually I got to turn six when I attacked before throwing in the towel. That was about 2:35 minutes of playing time. The second playing Holst threw in the towel when I whacked his KV Flametank in turn five movement phase. That was after work on Thursday. I got to Holst's house after work around 6:45 (I had to set up the defense when I got there as I attacked the previous playing) and I was back in my car going home at 9:05. Thus about 2:15 of playing time.

Play fast. Play more.
Thanks. I'm slow. It takes me a while to sort out which of twelve-thousand broken Finnish halfsquads needs to rout where to avoid overstacking and to get the best chance of rallying because the Soviet hoards are flooding through the victory factory like the Johnstown flood.

JR
 

Gunner Scott

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Get on VASL and I'll be more then happy to slaughter your Russian hoards. lol

Scott

I think somehow you are missing something. The Soviets are mucho-strong. Just my opinion, but I think it may favor the Soviets, although only slightly. I will gladly take the Soviets against all challengers.

JR
 

Sparafucil3

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I think somehow you are missing something. The Soviets are mucho-strong. Just my opinion, but I think it may favor the Soviets, although only slightly. I will gladly take the Soviets against all challengers.

JR
I agree. I played an earlier version where the Finns lacked some of the AT assets they have in the published version. I also suggested some tweaks to the OB choices to make the choices tougher to make (at least IMO). I would take the Russians any time. Sure, they Flame Tanks can be a little dicey, but once they cross the river, it is tough sledding for the Finns. -- jim
 

Gunner Scott

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I think of all the scenarios I have played out of J11, this one is the most fun, with that said, a good finnish player should win 90% of the time barring any really bad dice.
 

hastrup

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Can't wait to play this scenario - must be a balanced when players have such different opinions :)
 

jrv

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It is the sort of scenario that may give the impression of being wildly unbalanced, depending on who plays it. Both sides have to understand how to play all the cards they have been dealt from the Magic deck; otherwise it will seem crazy unwinnable. The OB options too are pretty balanced to me. The only one I don't especially like is the Finn ATG, and I think I could make it work too.

JR
 

Chas Argent

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I think somehow you are missing something. The Soviets are mucho-strong. Just my opinion, but I think it may favor the Soviets, although only slightly. I will gladly take the Soviets against all challengers.

JR
The Russians are both brutally strong and incredibly flexible. Their smoke-making ability—particularly the Churchills—will keep them dictating the pace. More can go wrong for the Finns, but that's often true of anyone on the defense.
 
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