The Eye of the Tiger....Let's Discuss Surprise!!

[Mad Russian]

**************WARNING: IF YOU HAVE NOT FINISHED HSG S SURPRISE IN THE SEEING THE ELEPHANT TOURNAMENT DO NOT ENTER!!!!!*****************

Okay, so here we are. Your experience at either hunting Tigers or being hunted by them is over.

We will discuss anything and everything about this scenario here that you like.

My own feelings about the scenario are that it poses very different tactical issues for both sides.

The Germans...well they have Tigers!!! That is a double edged sword. As you will find here the Germans often felt that Tigers alone were enough to win the battle. And sometimes they are. More often they are not.

In this scenario the Germans are short of everything but Tigers. So, how do you take this village without having to drive the Tigers into the village and sit them on the flags? You have to use the advantages you have. That is that everything in the German OOB is a spotter for those 88mm guns. They should sit back there and take this village apart. If you move them closer you take the chance of losing them. Lose even one of the Tigers and you stand a chance of losing this battle.

The Soviets....well you have everything else. The KV-2 is a problem. He can kill a Tiger but is so slow at targeting and so inaccurate the first couple of shots that he will be the Tigers first kill....UNLESS...you don't try to kill a Tiger outright with him but try for a gun kill. Target the KV in front of the Tiger as close as you can get without being able to target the Tiger itsefl then do area fire trying to kill that gun!! IF you get the gun you have taken the Tiger out of the fight! That works for me. The way I look at that is one down and one to go!

You have mines that may or may not help. Against an experienced opponent I would expect that you will not get a Tiger with mines. I would run the PzIII's in front of my Tigers to keep that from happening.

The infantry will kill a Tiger in a heart beat!! Let his Tigers come into this village and I win. Put your infantry on short covered arcs and hide them. You want my village come on in and take it from me!

The best Soviet plan? Strip the Tigers of their support. Both the infantry and the PzIII's. Kill everything you can around the Tigers. Limit your losses where you can but KILL GERMANS! Keep him off balance. Make him cautious.

You are playing for time here. Let the clock be your best ally. Let the clock force him to maybe make a mistake or try something he doesn't want to.

Both sides....one of the biggest mistakes a new gamer makes is time management. See how much time you have in a game. If you have lots of time don't rush it. If there is a time issue then make a plan and move out! This scenario is about middle of the line. The German doesn't have enough time to reduce the entire map to rubble but there is enough time to make the Soviet player think it lasts an eternity.

Tigers are hard to kill for most of their combat history. The key is learning to use what you have to your advantage.

In this scenario they have a range and Tiger advantage. The Tiger advantage is thick armour and big gun. Thick enough to stop most guns in the front and the gun big enough to kill most anything encountered.

What they lack is support. They will have a very hard time winning this battle with only two tanks. Unless they are allowed to do it at long range.

If the Soviet player forces the tempo of the game, by hiding his infantry assets and moving his armor along either flank to set up attack opportunites or to hide it as well, the German is at an extreme disadvantage. The Soviet player should be looking for three things in this order:

1) Doing anything that makes the German player cautious and forcing him to take TIME.

2) Killing any non-Tiger unit.

3) Killing or disabling a Tiger.

Notice I have going after the Tigers last and not first? Isolate them and they are killed easier than if you take them on with support. And oh yes, if he runs out of time and you don't have to fight them at all is the best answer of all.

Tigers are hard to use correctly. It's hard not to get what Guderian called "cat fur armour" mentality. He was referring to the ability of the cats; Tigers and Panthers to take front armour hits with almost complete immunity. The result was that they were used in situations when they didn't use good tactics. If you try cat fur armour in this scenario you'll lose them. Like in real life.

The Soviets can and will destroy the Tigers you have in this battle. Use good tactics. Keep your support alive as long as you can. Move the Tigers into position to support the attacks you make. Do that and you have a chance at winning this fight.

If the Soviet player allows you to the Tigers will dominate this fight. You need to put them in a position that they can if that happens.

So, let's talk.....questions, comments, criticisms...whatever you want.


Good Hunting.

MR

 

[setanta]

Follow up to match vs. Ada

I got the Soviets in this match-up. The Tigers were impenetrable. I didn't try to rush the Tigers because Ada kept good overwatch position, so I held back with T-34s by the river bank and behind the clump of trees in the middle of the village and hoped that he would send his infantry and PzIIIs into the village. I forgot to use the mines along the road bridge which might've helped in getting 1 of the Tigers to become bogged/immobilized.

Instead he sent 85mm HE shells from the Tigers time after time until all of the building cover (and the main bulk of my hidden infantry force w/covered arces) was decimated.
When I sent a T-34 or three for a look-see to try and flank a Tiger I got hurt from the Tigers who needed 1 shot per kill.

Ada played a very controlled game which left me little room for manoeuvre.

 

[Mad Russian]

I got the Soviets in this match-up. The Tigers were impenetrable.

The Tigers are impenetrable at long range with T-34/76's. When you go cat hunting with T-34/76's turn them loose on the Tigers like a pack of dogs on a cat. Lots of them from all kinds of angles. Don't rush two Tigers without about 10 T-34's for each because together they will tear your force up.

I didn't try to rush the Tigers because Ada kept good overwatch position, so I held back with T-34s by the river bank and behind the clump of trees in the middle of the village and hoped that he would send his infantry and PzIIIs into the village.

Something has to come into the village. The right idea is to kill everything else if his Tigers stay back. Take what he gives you or use the opportunities you generate for yourself.

I forgot to use the mines along the road bridge which might've helped in getting 1 of the Tigers to become bogged/immobilized.

Immobilizing a Tiger makes things alot easier. Then hits on the Tiger that won't penetrate can make then abandon it. Infantry can threaten it and get them abandon it.

You can still lose a dozen T-34's trying to kill it.

Instead he sent 85mm HE shells from the Tigers time after time until all of the building cover (and the main bulk of my hidden infantry force w/covered arces) was decimated.

You could have easily put your men in foxholes behind the houses. Whenever the Tiger destroys a house and generates a dust cloud run an infantry unit into the rubble and hide it there. Don't wait for him to destroy the next house in line....make it a mini-Stalingrad. You want destroyed houses come on in then....

When I sent a T-34 or three for a look-see to try and flank a Tiger I got hurt from the Tigers who needed 1 shot per kill.

When you go they all go or they all stay home. Sending them in dribbles feeds the cats with targets that they have no problems taking care of. What you want is to overwhelm the defense. You can't do that with 3 T-34's against 2 Tigers.

Or really even against one Tiger. You want to send at least 5 T-34's against him if you can. A SINGLE TIGER!! NOT A PAIR OF THEM!!

Ada played a very controlled game which left me little room for manoeuvre.

Somebody is going to win every battle. Or you'll get a draw. The player that wins usually is the one that makes the least mistakes. The player with Tigers usually has an advantage. In this case not so much but still, it is easier to recover from a mistake when you have a dominant weapons system on your side.

Tigers are not that hard to kill in the right situation. This one is a bit tough since the map is pretty open. What the German has to be careful of here is losing his supporting cast and then being forced to bring the Tigers in.

Good Hunting.

MR

 

[Cherper]

In my game, my tigers only had to move to the jog in the road, and then rip everything apart. Most of the T-34s weren't positioned hull-down and they were ripped to shreds. My only losses were a PzIII and 4-6 troops. I got LOS to the KV-1 at long range and ripped it apart too. I think that in this game, the Russian has to use the set-up to the fullest. Hide the T-34s on the flanks out of sight, and hope for a couple of flank shots. The infantry never came into play as I just stood off and blasted everything I could see.

 

[Mad Russian]

In my game, my tigers only had to move to the jog in the road, and then rip everything apart. Most of the T-34s weren't positioned hull-down and they were ripped to shreds. My only losses were a PzIII and 4-6 troops. I got LOS to the KV-1 at long range and ripped it apart too. I think that in this game, the Russian has to use the set-up to the fullest. Hide the T-34s on the flanks out of sight, and hope for a couple of flank shots. The infantry never came into play as I just stood off and blasted everything I could see.

So you never tried to take the village? You just took the points? Did you win?

I'm thinking if you set up a target range for the Tigers as the Russians you have no chance. You better keep your T-34's out of site and make the Germans come on in against them.

Blast houses if you want to. After you get the first one I run a fresh infantry squad into it and hide them. The dust cloud of the house you blew up will hide the move from you.

Eventually you will have to come hunting. When you do the Russians on your flanks should be waiting.

I'll have to fix the KV's coming on in LOS. I thought I had that fixed once already but Mangus just did the same thing to me in our battle.

Good Hunting.

MR

 

[Mad Russian]

CM is a thinking game first and foremost. It's a combat game second.

First you think about your plan.


It will be interesting to see what your attack plan is.

Will you just stand off and pound the village? Which is of course the very
strategy I would expect. You don't have the forces to just blindly charge across open ground and assault the village. While you could do that it's not a good idea....

Will you flank left or right? Will you attack in one spot while moving forward in another? What will be the German attack plan?

The Soviets are going to have to think about what to do with their forces, to determine the kind of combat we are going to have here, and where it will be.

Do they set their forces up to confront the German frontally? Or in a denial position? Or in a position to threaten their flanks? Or to play for a counterattack once they are even in posession of the objective?

As the attacker the German will have to take into account which of these the Soviet player may have decided upon and make your plan accordingly.

The most powerful weapon you have is your brain. You want to take this village without firing a shot if you can. The idea is to out think the other guy not outfight him. You only outfight him if you have too.

Good Hunting.

MR

 

[mangus2000]

And very enjoyable it was too:devious:

With our current game MRs T34s moving down my right flank (blocking my PzwIII advance) really threw a spanner in the works and has made me re-organise my entire plan.
As usual i have very little time left as well:angry:

 

[Joe Cz]

Just finished this scenario against Rickie. Here's the report I posted to the ladder:
---------
As the Axis, my plan was to keep my Tigers back in overwatch, while my PzIIIs advanced with the bulk of the infantry through some of the low ground on my right flank toward the church. This worked to some extent, as my Tigers were effective in killing almost any armor that they saw. Four or five T-34s tried to swing around my left side, but the Tiger over there took care of them, while the one in the center took out three KVs on the other flank.

On the downside, my PzIIIs got too agressive as they neared the church and were knocked out, while the infantry took heavy casualties and bogged down in the small buildings in front of the church.
----------
A late rush by my remaining infantry on the left flank as the Tiger moved forward was cut down my his hidden SMG squads and minefields, but with two squads, it didn't have enough weight to go anywhere.

I ended up not gaining any of the flags--the one by the church was disputed, the others still Soviet--but because I had managed to knock out enough of Rickie's tanks, I still managed a minor victory. It was a close game that went down to the wire. As I wrote to Rickie afterwards, "It seems I could have been more aggressive with my Tigers
and you could have been less aggressive with your T-34s."

Thanks for the scenario MR.

Joe

 

[Okimaw]

In my game against neon I initially kept a platoon on T34's at the village to try and give the inf some support. These were obliterated in the opening turns. With the remainder of my tanks, I kept them further back and utilized the ridges for shoot and scoot. In the end I only had the KV2, KV1, and 1 T34 but this strategy, along with the mines on the approach to the village kept his tanks far out unable to support his infantry. In the end I had the village and both flags but a tactical loss because of my armour losses

 

[Rickie]

Fighting Tigers

I just finished losing this against Joe C.

He kept his two Tigers back and blasted any tank that moved. I made a mistake of trying to sneak around his left flank. I sent 2 platoons of T34's but to no avail.

It didn't take much of a look for his tigers to knock out any of my armor.

I finally ended up resorting to shoot and scoor manueuver to try and take out his PzIII's, and suppress some of his Infantry. I managed to hold the objectives with one disputed). But my losses were too high.

Joe ended up with a well earned victory.

Good Scenario MR.

Thanks,
Rick

 

[Cherper]

So you never tried to take the village? You just took the points? Did you win?

I'm thinking if you set up a target range for the Tigers as the Russians you have no chance. You better keep your T-34's out of site and make the Germans come on in against them.

Blast houses if you want to. After you get the first one I run a fresh infantry squad into it and hide them. The dust cloud of the house you blew up will hide the move from you.
MR

I never even needed to get to the village. I started advancing down the road, with infantry and my PzIIIs leading. Everything came into view, and I killed it. I had no need to even enter the village as my opponents morale was completely shot after every armored vehicle was brewed up. I only suffered 6 casualties.

 

[neon]

My biggest mistake I made in this game (as Germans) was to forget all about infantry. A couple of turns there I was concentrating so much on manoeuring my tanks that I forgot about infantry and they cut up pretty bad. Hardly penestrated the village at all. May have done better than a minor victory if I keep my eye on the ball.

The Tigers were great fun to play with, especially after last game where I had the dodgy Soviet crews and tanks.

 

[Mad Russian]

I never even needed to get to the village. I started advancing down the road, with infantry and my PzIIIs leading. Everything came into view, and I killed it. I had no need to even enter the village as my opponents morale was completely shot after every armored vehicle was brewed up. I only suffered 6 casualties.

Interesting...here is part of the Soviet Scenario instructional sheet...

You have multiple weapons systems. You are on the defense and don’t have to move to win. You have setup zones that can put you on the attackers flanks either initially or with very little movement.

...Just don’t try to go head to head with a Tiger...

Kill anything and everything you can that is German! He can ill afford to lose any troops that support the Tigers and keep them out of the fight.

The reason for that advice was to keep this sort of a fight from happening. If you want to sit ouside the village then do it. But I'm not engaging the Germans until you come close enough for me to fire at you. The Soviet setup zones are varied enough that the Soviet tanks can be setup completely out of sight of the German force.

To win this fight the Soviet player MUST make the Germans come close. You can NEVER beat Tigers at long range with T-34/76's!! Even close up they are hard to deal with. And you should figure that it takes about 5 T-34/76's to rush a single Tiger to have a chance at somebody living to start getting side and rear shots on the cat at VERY CLOSE RANGE!!!

Again, this scenario is designed to show the defender that you need patience on defense. Sit still and wait! For those that didn't they can tell you just how well that worked out for them. Major victories for their German opponents. Move too quick and get killed for your impatience.

If the Soviet player holds his mens fire until he can see the whites of their eyes and he has a very good chance at winning this fight.

When we are finished here I'll let Mangus tell you about slashing attacks on his advancing forces and if he feels he has a much superior force to mine just because he has the Tigers. Or even if he feels that they are all that overwhelming towards his ability to capture the village with long range fire.

Since this was never done in playtesting I may change the victory conditions some. I may not either. If the Soviet lets the Tigers take his force apart at long range I see him retreating before the German even attacks the village! So that may well be a tactical victory without the German ever entering the village. I'll want to see some other results for the scenario before I determine if it is way overbalanced in the scoring yet.

Thanks for your comments.

Good Hunting.

MR

 

[Kineas]

I played the Soviet side in this scenario. The briefing referred to the Tigers and tiger hunting a lot. I made a quick test in the editor, and dropped the Tiger hunting with T34s option immediately, together with the notion of the tiger-killer KV2.

I decided to defend only 2 flags from the three: the middle, and (my) right. The reinforcement locations made this decision very lucky in retrospect.

My infantry was placed in foxholes between the houses, but the placement was not done very well, as it turned out. I placed all my tanks in the riverbed, trying to hide them. The placement later proved to be sloppy, couple of my tank got slowed down in scattered trees.

The game began, I started to fast forward my T34s one by one from the riverbed to the woods behind the village. After the 2nd tank this movement was aborted. By this time my opponent did the right thing: occupied small hills with the tigers and commanded the battlefield from then on.

I planned a small feint: I put the HMG team into the heavy building at the left flag, and opened fire early. The intention was to draw a lot of HE fire at an otherwise empty area. I had posted some thoughts about my habit of populating buildings in a previous topic. So I hoped my opponent would react with tremendous fire

And it turned to be the case. Unfortunately the evacuation plan went awry, I lost 1-2 men of the HMG team. And later it turned out my opponent got an immobilised tank and would have fired all the ammo at the building anyway. So this was not a major factor in the battle.

Then I saw his very small infantry force approaching to the undefended flag. By this time a couple of my tanks had LOS to the area, and I area fired the hell of them. Near to this flag was my elite commissar unit. He got no tanks to deal with, but provided very effective flanking fire, and drew a tremendous amount of HE fire from the tigers. Literally, an unpinnable unit, the squad lost 3 men in exchange for about 20 88mm HE grenades.

Then my reinforcements came, and I started to retake the village. Unfortunately my opponent copied my tactics, and I started to receive very accurate and deadly HE area fire from the tigers, my infantry got routed in no time.

I hoped in a grey flag at the end, but the game gave the left flag to my opponent. The other 2 were mine. He tried to rush a PzIII in the last turns to the middle flag, but my T34s overwatched the area, and I got free 100 points. Without this I might have lost. I lost a couple of peeking T34s during the game. Actually the majority of my tanks never fired, which was bad tactic, essentially I played with 3 tanks. I also managed to lose that damn KV2 almost immediately, which caused probably 200-300 points for me.

I only realized the low-contour, small dips in the map too late. They could have been useful, I only used them on the left side for the reinforcement KVs, and too late. Maybe the PzIIIs could have been flanked if I had used them earlier. The major lesson for me was this: use the '1' camera position for tank fights more.

 

[Mad Russian]

I played the Soviet side in this scenario. The briefing referred to the Tigers and tiger hunting a lot. I made a quick test in the editor, and dropped the Tiger hunting with T34s option immediately, together with the notion of the tiger-killer KV2.

I spent alot of time discussing how to kill Tigers because you don't need me to tell you how to deal with the other German weapons systems in this scenario.

I decided to defend only 2 flags from the three: the middle, and (my) right. The reinforcement locations made this decision very lucky in retrospect.

I often will defend only the objectives I think I can hold. If the troops you save cause as much damage to his forces as the flag is worth that you gave up then you made a good choice.

The game began, I started to fast forward my T34s one by one from the riverbed to the woods behind the village. After the 2nd tank this movement was aborted. By this time my opponent did the right thing: occupied small hills with the tigers and commanded the battlefield from then on.

If the German player uses the correct tactics the Tigers can be next to impossible to kill. You only have a chance at them if he makes mistakes. You should put yourself in a position to take advantage of any mistakes he makes.

Then I saw his very small infantry force approaching to the undefended flag. By this time a couple of my tanks had LOS to the area, and I area fired the hell of them. Near to this flag was my elite commissar unit. He got no tanks to deal with, but provided very effective flanking fire, and drew a tremendous amount of HE fire from the tigers. Literally, an unpinnable unit, the squad lost 3 men in exchange for about 20 88mm HE grenades.

Those that play my scenarios will find that they are a blend of strengths and weaknesses. The Germans have 2 Tigers but little else. The Tigers can't win this fight by themselves. The Soviets have alot of firepower but the Tigers can kill WHAT THEY CAN SEE! The map has plenty of places they can't see until you're ready to engage.

This, like most of my scenarios, is also a battle for the German against the clock. Most real life battles are as well. Alot is said on the CM sites about scenarios that don't give a gamer enough time to finish the fight. My scenarios are tight on time. I never saw a commander that was given all the time he wanted and most of the time that he needed to accomplish his mission. The same with my scenarios. The defender should ALWAYS play for the clock. String out the attacker, disrupt his rythm, make him change his plans..the clock is always ticking and is a reinforcement he can't counter.

Then my reinforcements came, and I started to retake the village. Unfortunately my opponent copied my tactics, and I started to receive very accurate and deadly HE area fire from the tigers, my infantry got routed in no time.

What your opponent can't see he can't kill. Only counterattack if he has limited resources to do anything about it. Out of LOS or almost out of time.

I hoped in a grey flag at the end, but the game gave the left flag to my opponent. The other 2 were mine. He tried to rush a PzIII in the last turns to the middle flag, but my T34s overwatched the area, and I got free 100 points. Without this I might have lost.

My point earlier about getting points back by not sacrificing them in locations you can't defend.

I lost a couple of peeking T34s during the game. Actually the majority of my tanks never fired, which was bad tactic, essentially I played with 3 tanks. I also managed to lose that damn KV2 almost immediately, which caused probably 200-300 points for me.

You should use as much of your force as you need to. Application of more T-34's might have gained you more points or given the Germans more points for killing them.

The KV-2 is hard to use. It's not accurate and it turns the turret SLOW!! BUT if he managese to hit anything he will be devestating! Keyholing him is the best plan of action.

I only realized the low-contour, small dips in the map too late. They could have been useful, I only used them on the left side for the reinforcement KVs, and too late. Maybe the PzIIIs could have been flanked if I had used them earlier. The major lesson for me was this: use the '1' camera position for tank fights more.

Even before I setup my forces I go to level 1 and survey the map. I want to know what the neighborhood looks like before we fight in it.

Good Hunting.

MR

 

[Mad Russian]

Just finished this scenario against Rickie. Here's the report I posted to the ladder:
---------
As the Axis, my plan was to keep my Tigers back in overwatch, while my PzIIIs advanced with the bulk of the infantry through some of the low ground on my right flank toward the church. This worked to some extent, as my Tigers were effective in killing almost any armor that they saw. Four or five T-34s tried to swing around my left side, but the Tiger over there took care of them, while the one in the center took out three KVs on the other flank.

On the downside, my PzIIIs got too agressive as they neared the church and were knocked out, while the infantry took heavy casualties and bogged down in the small buildings in front of the church.
----------
A late rush by my remaining infantry on the left flank as the Tiger moved forward was cut down my his hidden SMG squads and minefields, but with two squads, it didn't have enough weight to go anywhere.

I ended up not gaining any of the flags--the one by the church was disputed, the others still Soviet--but because I had managed to knock out enough of Rickie's tanks, I still managed a minor victory. It was a close game that went down to the wire. As I wrote to Rickie afterwards, "It seems I could have been more aggressive with my Tigers
and you could have been less aggressive with your T-34s."

Thanks for the scenario MR.

Joe

The not gaining any flags would not have you winning this scenario any more.

The sitting back with the Tigers and doing overwatch is the way to use the Tigers but the Soviets have to use their T-34's too. They can't just sit back and have you shoot them to pieces with your big cats.

Sounds like a well played game to me.

Good Hunting.

MR

 

[Mad Russian]

Well, my battle with Mangus is finally over and I hold the village.

He like many of you sat back and killed every tank I moved into LOS of his Tigers. The problem is where I moved them and when.

As he started forward I moved a platoon of T-34's up the gully on my right flank.

He took them out but lost a PzIII there. He also lost a bit of momentum and planted the seeds of doubt about how easy this was or was not going to be.

There was a series of short rushes by the Germans and my forces sat tight. Don't move troops for no good reason.

Then his infantry tried an assault on the village by the bridge. My KV-2 at the church and a couple T-34's behind him made that attack very costly.

I had tanks sniping at his forces with shoot and scoot from different angles. Sometimes I would lose one and sometimes not. Always making him keep his advance slow.

Then he targeted the church to get rid of the KV-2 threat to his infantry and an amazing thing happened. I reversed the KV to get away from the church when it came down and gave it a hunt order on the road just to the left of the church with a covered arc to the PzIII's.

As the KV-2 came out from behind the church it fired ONCE and killed a PzIII. I had timed the move with a KV-1 from much farther to my left and that tannk hit the other PzIII in the flank and turret.

Then the KV-2 CHARGED the Germans!!! With a hunt order!!!!

It took about THAT long for the Tigers to kill him but the Germans were down to a single mobile tank....one Tiger being immmobilized. I had started to advance tanks out of LOS to get multiple angle shots on the Tigers.

It was at that point that the scenario ended. Not sure if Mangus breathed a sigh of relief or shouted in anger!!!

This was a very intense fight against a good opponent.

Thanks for the game Mangus! I really enjoyed both of them.

Good Hunting.

MR