The Emperors New Games

Geordie

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The latest round of BF insults over their Tiger screenshot has got me thinking about the whole CM thing in general and the attitude that they seem to have towards their customers. I have decided to withdraw from the BF site for a while, its not a conducive atmosphere to debate gaming issues, it really is a marketplace for their games. While there is nothing wrong with this purpose, I think a better debate can be had here.

Not all opinions are of equal worth. Your opinion about the entire nature of the game based on a single screenshot is... well.. not very useful. It actually says more about you than it does about the game.
Actually my opinion isn’t based on a single screenshot, its based around the fact that BF cant, or wont deliver simple answers to simple things. Will infantry squads be able to perform simple infantry formations. I don’t think its too much to ask that my infantry squad don’t all bunch up during an ambush, Id like to extend their line or put them in a colums of march. No word of this?

But we do have a sexy Tiger screenshot though, and a lively debate in where Steve yet again contradicts himself by saying that they had to put in a Tiger, even though its unlikely that the US encountered it (Panzer Lehr had 3!) because that’s what everyone wants to see, but on the other hand categorically states that BF don’t pander to the market.

He then goes on to state that there were Tigers in the BO release. I get that, Tigers were encountered by the US there as it was called Beyond Overlord and covered the rest of the war.

You are given one screenshot and instead of withholding judgement, you instead try to link the shot to all of your worst fears about what CM Normandy might turn out to be. That's why I used the word "paranoia".
Not true, my ‘worst fear’ is based on the cm-2 engine and the debacle that was and at times still can be SF. No infantry formations, armour cant cross a 2 foot wall, all trenches can be spotted from the start, infantry squads wont move to a fire position when two of its members engage a target, lack of hand to hand, no close assaults on vehicles etc etc etc. So Im mostly basing my ‘fears’ on the game engine, although the Tiger helped set the tone of whats to come.

There is absolutely no factual basis for you to have come to any of the conclusions you came to, including the initial state of release of CM:SF or any of the previous CM games. In fact, you and I had a debate about this before so I know that your opinions were formed by fears even before seeing this screenshot.

Steve
I think the state of the CMSF release is core to my statement that he wouldn’t be getting my unswerving trust with any further releases. Why should I trust a company that released a turgid mess and then went on to tell us we ‘didn’t get it’ only to back peddle and backtrack and put things into the game that were in CM-1 games. Our so called debate about this before consisted of Steve throwing his usual insults.

So Ive come to the conclusion that Steve has become the Emperor, strutting about in all his CM nudity as his fanbois and followers, who only crave to have the word ‘Beta’ next to their names tell him that everything is OK in the land of game design.

Ive seen him debate with guys who actually train infantry that they were wrong. Ive seen him debate how air power works with guys that have actually done it. Ive seen him debate about how the Brits wear their clothes on Ops with guys that have worn the clothes. Hes never worn a uniform or sat in a tank on Ops, but he always knows best of course.

Once they were innovative, but now they have become just another company peddling a mediocre set of games that whilst fun to play are no longer as innovative as they seem to advertise them to be.
 

thewood

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I stopped debating Steve shortly after CMSF release. I came to the conclusion that Steve will not debate or respond to glaring omissions in key functionality. He will debate to death conceptual ideas because he can declare himself the winner. If a question or complaint can not be countered by rational logic, he will ignore the thread entirely or let his mafia come in and start shoving people around. Usually the next patch addresses the issue, but Steve never will. Its his game, he can do what he wants with it.
 

Michael Dorosh

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He then goes on to state that there were Tigers in the BO release. I get that, Tigers were encountered by the US there as it was called Beyond Overlord and covered the rest of the war.
Is Steve drunk or just stupid? Add to that the fact that CM:BO included six different nationalities, including the British, Canadians, French and Polish, all of whom served in Normandy in June, July and August, where Tigers operated routinely (notably Wittman's unit), so not including Tigers would have been a serious omission from CM:BO. And of course, CM:BO covered the period June 1944 to May 1945.

Ive seen him debate with guys who actually train infantry that they were wrong. Ive seen him debate how air power works with guys that have actually done it. Ive seen him debate about how the Brits wear their clothes on Ops with guys that have worn the clothes. Hes never worn a uniform or sat in a tank on Ops, but he always knows best of course.
Your entire post is excellent, but I should point out that Steve has worn a uniform. He collects camouflage uniforms for a hobby - though I only surmise that he wears them to be honest.... But your point is taken.
 
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Sirocco

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I think we've all seen it and bought the t-shirt. The last straw for me was a discussion on the campaign system when a tester and army type posted to support Steve in the idea that it was perfectly reasonable not to know what units were under your command on a day to day basis and what was attached. Then that same tester berated me for not rolling over to Steve.

You just can't have an open and honest discussion over there. It's a brave man to stick his head above the parapet and either suggest something that Steve doesn't like, or support it. What you're left with is largely a bunch of sycophants that tell Steve what he wants to hear.

And that whole, why aren't you more grateful line irritates me. How does he think he's managed to do this for the last ten years? Did the fairies leave all that money in his bank account? It's a two way street.
 

dalem

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Yep.

MD's read it all from me on this topic, I could go copy-paste some stuff from other forums, but really it's simpler to just agree with y'all. I gave up after going toe-to-toe with Steve in the "Is CMSF Fundamentally Flawed?" thread a few months after release. Steve was... well, Steve, and I didn't want to get banned either as a result of my anger or his, so I took my discussions of the game elsewhere. What really pinned the tail on the donkey for me is the fact that I (and others) were followed to that elsewhere and dogged. Weirdest thing I've ever been a part of. So now I'm left to pull quotes from his site and post them here to comment on them.

Silly I suppose, but to see a company with such promise deliberately pee its own pants at the party is fascinating to me, I admit it. Plus, I was hoping for a supercharged CM one day.

Bottom line is that interacting with Steve, or sadly, anyone from BFC now, is pointless. They were never good at customer face time, but now they literally lash out like a wounded bear, and I believe they really don't understand why some of us are so quick to criticize. They act as if they still have some great well of customer goodwill to draw from, and don't seem to "get" that they had drained that thing dry by the end of August '07.

-dale
 

Sirocco

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It would be great if we could discuss these topics over there. And it isn't about winning or losing arguments; we're not spitting the dummy because we can't get our own way. It would be genuinely interesting to talk this and that over at source, and it would be beneficial for BFC to have that conversation. Instead they swerved all over the road with CMSF and now we can only hope that Steve has absorbed some of the comments made on their forum and elsewhere.
 

Sirocco

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But that's pretty much another of Steve's catchphrases; your opinion is worthless.
 

Mad Russian

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JasonC was the mighty straw that broke my back at BFC.

He knows everything about WWII. I'm amazed that he's not making his living writing books about WWII for the rest of us mortals. Pity that some of that intelligence isn't used for, well, intelligent conversation........

After playing around with the first few versions of CMSF I've not been back either to BFC or CMSF....been literally months since I've been over there. What I find really funny is that JasonC at times ventures out onto other sites. But you know he's not King of the Hill out here. He's pretty quiet.....probably a good thing. Steve's not out here to protect him from himself out here.

Good Hunting.

MR
 
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