The Citadel. The Russian Balance.

Tim Niesen

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One follow up question. The SSR on building states that all mult-hex building are one and half buildings with inherent stairwells. When that I played this scenario twice about a decade ago, I thought that the six hex rowhouse was a rowhouse. And this situation hurt the Russian chances because I could not fire as a fire group. A series of 4 plus 3s! Now, is the rowhouse structure retained? Or not? Tim
 

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One follow up question. The SSR on building states that all mult-hex building are one and half buildings with inherent stairwells. When that I played this scenario twice about a decade ago, I thought that the six hex rowhouse was a rowhouse. And this situation hurt the Russian chances because I could not fire as a fire group. A series of 4 plus 3s! Now, is the rowhouse structure retained? Or not? Tim

The Victory Building is not a rowhouse. The SSR means that "all multi-hex buildings" have only
a Ground Level and a 1st Level. But that does not automatically make them rowhouses.
 
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Tim Niesen

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Therefore, the six hex rowhouse north of the Citidel is not as it is depicted on the map, a rowhouse. Or is it a rowhouse? Certainly, the only victory condition building is the Citidel itself. Tim
 

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Therefore, the six hex rowhouse north of the Citidel is not as it is depicted on the map, a rowhouse. Or is it a rowhouse? Certainly, the only victory condition building is the Citidel itself. Tim
Does it have thick black bars between the hexes ? Then it is a row house with a ground and 1st level.
 

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Not sure if they changed the wording from the original scenario card, but the SSR from the card I have, I think it is from the 3rd edition BV, is below, and the wording on the card is not the same as posted here - i.e., it does not state "all mult-hex building are one and half buildings with inherent stairwells. ". the quoted phrase implies they are changing the building, rather than the actual words that only state how many levels. A rowhouse is a multi-hex building; they are defined to have a ground and 1st level location, are 1.5 level obstacles, and have an inherent stairwell in each hex.

21316

When I get confused about something in ASL I find it is because I did not really comprehend what was actually being said and in my mind I am going from my own paraphrased understanding. I always go back to the actual wording and attempt to read more carefully. That usually clears up my previous misunderstanding/confusion. ASL uses specific terms and wording to relay concepts and is not easy to quickly skim through and actually understand the nuances of what is being said. When in doubt, go back and re-read the text, taking the time to parse it without paraphrasing - it helps.
 

apbills

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It's amazing how much better the artwork is now compared to some of the original VASL map artwork. In the day it was great to be able to play, placed side by side now it is an order of magnitude better. Just a great job by the guys making the maps!
 

Tim Niesen

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Looks like calling Don 2 may be in order, my questions in combination with his pocket rulebook yield new insights into the rules. You may be underestimating Don 1, however. He has a hell of a military history library, but no rulebook. He did buy Yanks, and both of us have the Manila module on preorder. Steve just got a new job. Secret games seem unlikely. At least to me. Others are more optimistic. I don't like the idea of waking at 430AM. Don 1 has awoken at 3AM for 45 years. Tim
 

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I think this, or something similar, is how Sam set up his Armored Cupolas
to prevent the Germans, who occupy the Victory Building at Game Start,
from ever gaining concealment, and severely limiting rout paths.
(Granted, it's been 20+years, so my memory is a little foggy.)
 

Tim Niesen

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I think that the Armored Cupolas must start outside of the road grid surrounding the Citidel. One of the three here violate that SSR. Or at least that is my interpretation of the SSR. One of the items that I recently discussed with Don 2 is the issue of the Russian Bunkers. When or if they appear. The Russians set up first. Then the Germans set up. If any of the Bunkers contain a non HIP unit, and are in LOS within 16 hexes, then they appear on the board, but after German setup The non HIP units in the bunker are under a concealment counter. One question is if this type of a concealment counter accounts toward the 16 Russian concealment counters allocated to the Russian side in this scenario? I don't think so, but asking nonetheless. Tim
 

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I think that the Armored Cupolas must start outside of the road grid surrounding the Citidel. One of the three here violate that SSR. Or at least that is my interpretation of the SSR. One of the items that I recently discussed with Don 2 is the issue of the Russian Bunkers. When or if they appear. The Russians set up first. Then the Germans set up. If any of the Bunkers contain a non HIP unit, and are in LOS within 16 hexes, then they appear on the board, but after German setup The non HIP units in the bunker are under a concealment counter. One question is if this type of a concealment counter accounts toward the 16 Russian concealment counters allocated to the Russian side in this scenario? I don't think so, but asking nonetheless. Tim
Units in pillboxes get free HIP. (that means ‘bunkers’ to)
 

chris_olden

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I think that the Armored Cupolas must start outside of the road grid surrounding the Citidel. One of the three here violate that SSR. Or at least that is my interpretation of the SSR. One of the items that I recently discussed with Don 2 is the issue of the Russian Bunkers. When or if they appear. The Russians set up first. Then the Germans set up. If any of the Bunkers contain a non HIP unit, and are in LOS within 16 hexes, then they appear on the board, but after German setup The non HIP units in the bunker are under a concealment counter. One question is if this type of a concealment counter accounts toward the 16 Russian concealment counters allocated to the Russian side in this scenario? I don't think so, but asking nonetheless. Tim
Yeah. So, two of the cupolas are ok, and the one in J5 needs to be elsewhere.
Like I said, it's been 20+ years! However, that was a big part of Sam's set up.
It worked great.
 

Tim Niesen

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Our interpretation is that AT guns as well as those allocated HIP infantry MMC, SMC, and their SW, get HIP in those bunkers in concealment terrain. And are not placed upon the board. However, this is limited to two squads in this scenario. But those units exceeding this limit do not get HIP status in bunkers, even in concealment terrain. Rather they are placed under concealment counters which hid their identity but does not reduce, or half, incoming enemy fire. My question was if this type of concealment deducts from the allocated 16 concealment counters. I think that they do not count in this regard. Tim
 

Tim Niesen

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Of course, this is in ETO, but not PTO. There the rules are different. Tim
 

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Our interpretation is that AT guns as well as those allocated HIP infantry MMC, SMC, and their SW, get HIP in those bunkers in concealment terrain. And are not placed upon the board. However, this is limited to two squads in this scenario. But those units exceeding this limit do not get HIP status in bunkers, even in concealment terrain. Rather they are placed under concealment counters which hid their identity but does not reduce, or half, incoming enemy fire. My question was if this type of concealment deducts from the allocated 16 concealment counters. I think that they do not count in this regard. Tim
A12.33 “Fortifications in Concealment Terrain always set up hidden...” “...Fortifications set up in non-Concealment Terrain are treated as if set up in Concealment Terrain”...
Then
B 30.7 “A pillbox Location is Concealment Terrain;”...”If a pillbox sets up hidden, so do its contents.”
Therefore, free HIP in pillboxes.
Urgent message for Don2.
 
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Tim Niesen

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Sounds good to me. We thought that only HIP by SSR MMC/SMC/SW were HIP in bunkers that are in concealment terrain. That those squads and leaders that exceed those HIP limits were not HIP in bunkers. But those quoted rules imply that bunkers hidden by concealmemt terrain, do not need HIP units therein to be hidden. That is why am here: to understand the limits of the rules. Tim
 

bendizoid

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Sounds good to me. We thought that only HIP by SSR MMC/SMC/SW were HIP in bunkers that are in concealment terrain. That those squads and leaders that exceed those HIP limits were not HIP in bunkers. But those quoted rules imply that bunkers hidden by concealmemt terrain, do not need HIP units therein to be hidden. That is why am here: to understand the limits of the rules. Tim
I will strive to be a positive influence. Glad you all like ASL.
 
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