The British European Referendum

Should Britain leave the EU?


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Paul_RS

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Nope. You're totally misreading the attitude of the country on that.
Never happen.
It's exit with a deal or exit with no deal.

I wish I was wrong by the way, but you'll see that I'm not
May went into DFS and came out with a suite at full price + 10%. simples. :)
 

Dr Zaius

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Whether Brexit was a good idea or not is one thing, and I personally was skeptical about its overall benefits. That said, it does seem obvious, from the perspective of an outside observer, that some people who opposed it are now working as hard as they can to help ensure it becomes a disaster.

It didn’t have to be this way. But it seems this is the trend of modern politics everywhere. Instead of simply admitting that the vote didn’t go their way and then working to help the new policy become a success for the whole country, people would rather spike the process and ensure it fails. Then the other side retaliates, and on and on we go.

If people can’t have their way, they’d rather burn down the house.
 

Paul_RS

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Whether Brexit was a good idea or not is one thing, and I personally was skeptical about its overall benefits. That said, it does seem obvious, from the perspective of an outside observer, that some people who opposed it are now working as hard as they can to help ensure it becomes a disaster.

It didn’t have to be this way. But it seems this is the trend of modern politics everywhere. Instead of simply admitting that the vote didn’t go their way and then working to help the new policy become a success for the whole country, people would rather spike the process and ensure it fails. Then the other side retaliates, and on and on we go.

If people can’t have their way, they’d rather burn down the house.
It's difficult supporting something that doesn't exist and never did and any coherently workable form (look no further than the May plan, the biggest parliamentary defeat in history), but your last sentence describes Brexiters perfectly. It might have been a good idea to debate and agree on a plan before triggering article 50, but they didn't. May presented her red lines at the Lancaster house speech in 2017 without discussing them with anybody other than her unelected SPAD, Nick Timothy.

to quote Chris Grey:

Despite their political differences, May and Corbyn are remarkably similar in their grotesque rigidity, and their slightly tetchy muleishness born of a mediocrity of character, intellect and judgment. Indeed the most notable thing about the closing speeches in the ‘no confidence’ debate was that they provided devastating critiques of both party leaders. Certainly neither seems remotely prepared or competent to create and lead the kind of temporary or semi-permanent cross-party parliamentary alliance that looks like the only route out of this mess.

Unless something radical changes – and it may, precisely because of the desperate plight we are now in - then it seems highly likely that Britain will leave the EU with no deal. That will mean that in ten weeks’ time we will face severe economic and social dislocation, with the probability of food and medicine shortages, troops on the street, disruptions to travel and much else.

It would be an outcome desired by only a tiny minority of grossly irresponsible ideologues in parliament and amongst the public. The division, crisis and extremism it would unleash make that feared were there to be another referendum, or even a revocation of Article 50 without a vote, seem like a walk in the park.

Nobody needs to 'Work hard' to achieve this outcome, in peacetime in a leading Western G7 country, it will happen by default.
 
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Vinnie

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If the Labour didecwould say what they would support, we might get a workable majority for a deal. As it is, they have made it clear that they would vote against anything. There is no possibility of the conservatives gaining a commons majority for anything.
 

STAVKA

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Only a EU marxist bowing down to their German neo-socialist-masters would try to refute the following:

No deal’ merely means trading on WTO terms. Trade on WTO terms is the norm. 90 per cent of world trade is done on WTO terms. 60 per cent and rising of our trade with other countries is done on WTO terms. Our exports to the countries we trade with on WTO terms have grown three times as fast as our exports to the EU’s Single Market. Our businesses trading with the USA trade on WTO terms and we run a trade surplus with the USA. Our businesses trading with the EU trade on its Single Market terms and we run a trade deficit with the EU. WTO rules give us full access to the EU’s Single Market. Access does not require membership. It would be illegal for the EU to restrict our access to the Single Market.
 

Martin Mayers

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If the Labour didecwould say what they would support, we might get a workable majority for a deal. As it is, they have made it clear that they would vote against anything. There is no possibility of the conservatives gaining a commons majority for anything.
Which again, isn't Labour's fault, it's the Tory's.

They called a ridiculous General Election. They blew their majority.

If the shoe were on t'other foot the Tories would also vote down anything Labour.

This entire shit show is down to Tory incompetence.
 

Paul M. Weir

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I see N. Ireland has gone bang! Nobody dead in Derry, but Brexit hasn't even started. Unfortunately my fears about its impact have proved correct.
 

Martin Mayers

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And according to this conservative (and former Trotskyite), Tory incompetence on this file stretches back decades. But New Labour played a fatal role too.

I don't buy it.

This is 100% David Cameron and Teresa May. No-one else. They're entirely responsible.

By the way. It's a typical Tory trick this attempt to dilute and spread blame because it's all gone tits up. They did similar during the time of their coalition. Everything good "Tory" everything bad "Lib Dem" everything they wanted to do but couldn't manage "Lib Dem hampered us".

Scum
 

Vinnie

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Don't think I don't lay the blame squarely at Cameron's door. I was merely pointing out how the stalemate cannot be broken by the conservatives themselves.
 

BattleSchool

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This is 100% David Cameron and Teresa May. No-one else. They're entirely responsible.
I don't think anyone is arguing that.

By the way. It's a typical Tory trick this attempt to dilute and spread blame because it's all gone tits up. They did similar during the time of their coalition. Everything good "Tory" everything bad "Lib Dem" everything they wanted to do but couldn't manage "Lib Dem hampered us".
I think that's in the play book of most politicos.

The doco (which first aired on BBC 4 in 2005) provides a historical overview of how the UK got so deeply mired in the EU. The Tories deserve the lion's share of the blame, but New Labour is far from innocent. Had both parties resisted Brussels' solicitations more earnestly, the Union might be in a better position than it currently is, the irresponsible antics of today's Conservative Party notwithstanding.
 

Paul_RS

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Melchett: Are we all ready to give those French a good licking?
Darling: It’s the Germans we’ll be licking, sir.
Melchett: Don’t be ridiculous, Darling. I wouldn’t lick a German if he were glazed in honey!
 

Paul_RS

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I don't think anyone is arguing that.



I think that's in the play book of most politicos.

The doco (which first aired on BBC 4 in 2005) provides a historical overview of how the UK got so deeply mired in the EU. The Tories deserve the lion's share of the blame, but New Labour is far from innocent. Had both parties resisted Brussels' solicitations more earnestly, the Union might be in a better position than it currently is, the irresponsible antics of today's Conservative Party notwithstanding.
Ahh... the BBC (more recently known as the Brexit Broadcasting Company due to their neutral stance and probing interviews). Well it must be true then ;-)

.... 48% don't think the UK was deeply mired in the EU, just for the record.

You will find hardly anything worth reading in relation to Brexit in the UK mainstream media, at least nothing that is informed or has undergone a rudimentary fact check. I would, however, recommend catching up on Sir Ivan Rogers' two most recent speeches, well worth listening to.
 
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Paul_RS

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I see N. Ireland has gone bang! Nobody dead in Derry, but Brexit hasn't even started. Unfortunately my fears about its impact have proved correct.
Terrible though this is, it needs to viewed as part of the recent historical attacks and bombings:

Violent paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland has resulted in 1,100 bombings and shootings over the past 10 years, along with almost 800 so-called punishment attacks and 4,000 cases of people being forced out of their homes.

The alarming figures, released by the Belfast-based Detail Data website, were compiled from police, prison, court and public transport records.
They make clear that there are still thousands of people associated with paramilitary groups responsible for acts of violence and intimidation.
According to the website, such groups were responsible for 22 killings, more than 1,000 shootings and bombings, 787 paramilitary-style attacks and nearly 4,000 reports of people forced to flee their homes between 2006 and 2015.
Between 2007 and 2015, just 80 convictions were secured under terrorism legislation, leading to a paltry 48 prison terms.

The Good Friday Agreement was signed in 1998.

The recent bombing probably made the UK national news because of Brexit, but it isn't an isolated or new trend in violent acts within the province, nor have I seen any reports that link it specifically with Brexit.
 

BattleSchool

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Ahh... the BBC (more recently known as the Brexit Broadcasting Company due to their neutral stance and probing interviews). Well it must be true then ;-)
Hmmm. I had always thought that the BBC was left-leaning like the CBC. I also had the impression that the charge for Brexit was characterized as being led from the right. The doco was more to do with the history of the UK and EU relationship, than with making a case for Brexit. Did Brexit have a strong following in 2005?

.... 48% don't think the UK was deeply mired in the EU, just for the record.
For the record, did the referendum pose that question? ;)

You will find hardly anything worth reading in relation to Brexit in the UK mainstream media, at least nothing that is informed or has undergone a rudimentary fact check. I would, however, recommend catching up on Sir Ivan Rogers' two most recent speeches, well worth listening to.
I listened to his first lecture last year. Thanks for alerting me to the second. Watched about half of it before SWMBO got home. WIll watch rest tomorrow.

Much of what Rogers had to say in his first talk reinforces the perception that it will be exceedingly difficult for the UK to extricate itself from the EU. This is a direct consequence of the country being so deeply embedded in EU institutions--regardless of what the 48 percent may or may not have said on the matter. ;)
 
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