The British European Referendum

Should Britain leave the EU?


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    44

Martin Mayers

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The UK or the USA doesn't have clean hands in the handling of Jewish immigration leading up to WWII, but we didn't put the Jews in ovens either. Seems you have a little Stockholm syndrome going on with your arguments.
We interned German sounding Jewish people on the Isle of Man, which happened to be a popular holiday destination in the British Isles back then. They were fed, and very well looked after. Considerably safer as it happened to civilians living in London, Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow etc.

Many of them fell in love with the place and stayed on the island after the war ended (it's a beautiful place...I have my own love affair with it).

We were such dirty, evil, British bastards back then.
 

Martin Mayers

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Please note that it was never my intention to insult anyone here personally. I have fond memories of the times spent in Great Britain and I really like your country and the people there.
My advice, for what little it's worth (none), if you don't intend to insult someone......then don't insult them.

I like Germany and Germans also. I've been many times on holiday (Moselle Valley). I'll be transparent though, I'll never go again. I'm tired of hearing you Germans and French pissing and whining because my country were so audacious as to vote in a manner you didn't agree.

The irony, I voted remain. But since the vote I've turned my back on Europe. It can kiss my fat arse. And I'm not the only one of my ilk. So you and your arrogant, dick swinging, self absorbed, bully boy politicians can congratulate yourselves on waking me up to the reality. The reality being that we're actually really not liked for any reason other than our money.
 
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tunixx

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My advice, for what little it's worth (none), if you don't intend to insult someone......then don't insult them.

I like Germany and Germans also. I've been many times on holiday (Moselle Valley). I'll be transparent though, I'll never go again. I'm tired of hearing you Germans and French pissing and whining because my country were so audacious as to vote in a manner you didn't agree.
I couldn't care less about any decisions you make. If you want to harm yourself, do it as many times as you like. What annoys me is that Brexit will affect other countries (us) as well. Our economy will suffer, too. Plus travel to the UK will be harder than before.
 

Sparafucil3

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What annoys me is that Brexit will affect other countries (us) as well. Our economy will suffer, too. Plus travel to the UK will be harder than before.
Holy shit! That changes everything. STOP BREXIT NOW!!!! Tunixx need to travel for a nappy. -- jim
 

Martin Mayers

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I couldn't care less about any decisions you make. If you want to harm yourself, do it as many times as you like. What annoys me is that Brexit will affect other countries (us) as well. Our economy will suffer, too. Plus travel to the UK will be harder than before.
What the fuck?

Do you even know how utterly absurd that sounds?

If you ignore the horse shit about "harming ourselves" (it might happen but neither you nor I actually know what the repercussions for GB will be long term) what you are saying is that Britain should always have one eye on our competitors and never do anything to try benefit us that might harm them.

I said competitors. Like, you DO realise that we're competitors ??

How are Germany coming along in terms of making decisions in everyone's interest rather than Germany's national interest.

Unbelievable stuff I'm reading. And I have to say they could only come from a German it's so utterly, unfathomably, arrogant.
 
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Martin Mayers

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The winds are stirring in Italy. Could they be the next to bail ? Maybe Britain was ahead of the curve on this. Chao.
This is entirely it. They are so frightened of Brexit because we might, we just might, do better as a result of it. It may be an unmitigated disaster. But there's a chance we'll strengthen and Germany and France (whom this is ultimately ALL about) weaken. And they can't have it. Because if/when we do make a success of it then they can see the entire house of cards collapsing.

I'll say again, I was a remainer. But I'm not a remoaner. And having made the decision to exit I believe long term we will make it work for us. And our so called friends (who we are finding not to be quite the friends they suggested they were) absolutely hate that there is a possibility of this.

The problem with the EU is that it's so divisive within nation countries. 48/52% in our case but so tight in other countries such as Italy. The Netherlands, and such. It would not take a lot to see some of those nations attitudes swing dramatically.

We fuck it all up and I'm sure it would strengthen opinion in favour of the EU. But we make a good fist of it......I can't see any other future for it than disintegration.
 

BattleSchool

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I couldn't care less about any decisions you make. If you want to harm yourself, do it as many times as you like. What annoys me is that Brexit will affect other countries (us) as well. Our economy will suffer, too. Plus travel to the UK will be harder than before.
FWIW, I do care what decisions you and your politicians make.

If you want to harm yourself again, simply invite another million migrants to Europe.

What annoys me about Germany's virtue-signalling magnanimity is that is has had an negative effect on other countries, several of which have neither the wealth nor the infrastructure to cope with hundreds of thousands of migrants landing on their shores.

Other European economies are suffering.

Plus travel to Germany is harder than before. Just ask any bonafide asylum seeker.

IMO, Merkel's mistake will cost the EU far more in the long term than Brexit will.
 

Martin Mayers

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FWIW, I do care what decisions you and your politicians make.

If you want to harm yourself again, simply invite another million migrants to Europe.

What annoys me about Germany's virtue-signalling magnanimity is that is has had an negative effect on other countries, several of which have neither the wealth nor the infrastructure to cope with hundreds of thousands of migrants landing on their shores.

Other European economies are suffering.

Plus travel to Germany is harder than before. Just ask any bonafide asylum seeker.

IMO, Merkel's mistake will cost the EU far more in the long term than Brexit will.
Germany has a shortfall of workers willing to do the really shitty jobs. Those Germans just ain't been shagging enough. This happened in the 70s and 80s (though their working age men shortfall was somewhat more influenced by Britain, the US, USSR, etc bwahahaha) hence the introduction into the language of the word 'Gastarbeiter'. Turks mainly, but also other foreign nationalities entering to work in heavy industry, construction, and the like.

Merkel saw this ready supply of very desperate people who can be the next generation of Gastarbeiter and bingo.

It's probably a good move for Germany if you obviously ignore the social issues this might bring. Quite clever thinking. Again, if you ignore the social issues.
 

von Marwitz

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What annoys me about Germany's virtue-signalling magnanimity is that is has had an negative effect on other countries, several of which have neither the wealth nor the infrastructure to cope with hundreds of thousands of migrants landing on their shores.
Please note, that the Germans weren't asked about this. Nor our Parliament. Merkel made a lonely decision.

Just as the British were divided over the Brexit (52/48 IIRC), it is a myth that "the Germans" welcomed this insane flood of migrants foreign to western culture and values. Those who cared to look or had the bad luck of living around concentrations of the millions of turks that failed to integrate despite living in Germany for two generations even before the recent (and ongoing) influx knew it will provide us with a shitload of trouble for decades to come.

Now it begins to dawn upon some of those that happily joined in the blind "refugees welcome" frenzy what a burden they have placed upon the country for generations to come as the problems arrive virtually at their doorstep. Just like the British now face that the Brexit (may they have supported it or not) won't be the cake-walk promised by some of their politicians. It was clear from the beginning for any sane mind to see that the Brexit would cause serious problems for the British and that this refugee-frenzy does the same for Germany - and in fact Europe.

IMO, Merkel's mistake will cost the EU far more in the long term than Brexit will.
I absolutely agree.

Merkel has effectively not only divided Germany but the entire EU with her attempt to prescribe the acceptance of millions of refugees that are alien to our culture.

By this she managed to create the conditions for a right-wing party of very questionable views to spring up to 13% and to establish itself to stay. Unprecedented in Germany where up to now such extremists generally hovered below 5%. And of course, the migrants are not skilled workers as some politicians brazenly attempted to tell us. Quite the opposite, many of them will even have trouble to succeed in a shit job that requires some sort of education. While Germany has managed to lower unemployment by more than 2 million at the cost of some hurtful reforms over the last decades, Merkel has now managed to replace them with about the same number of people that mainly have insufficient education to have a chance to compete, don't speak the language, don't share our culture, need to be subsidized 360°, many of whom are sick or traumatized. And hope to pull their families after them. When eventually the current economical boom will recede, the insane cost of all this will fall on our feet. No. More precisely, the insane cost already burdening us will then become apparent. We already know that pensions for milliions of Germans even if they work for all their life will only allow them sustenance on a poverty level (before the refugee-flood). We already know that education is underfunded (before the refugee-flood). We know that we would need to invest huge amounts of money to prevent the decay of our infrastructure (before the refugee-flood). We know that our military is a joke and ridiculusly underfunded (before the refugee-flood). Now that the refugee-flood is here (and keeps coming), "surprisingly" they need housing. Which, of course, they can't pay for. But with with an influx of hundeds of thousands a year seeking room, "surprisingly" rents soar up especially in the cities that even the middle class has an increasing trouble paying it. Education in Kindergarten and schools gets even worse because teachers are now expected to additionally cope with analphabets unable to speak a word of German and possibly traumatized in the normal classes. This drags down everyone. After a couple of years now the do-gooders that helped the refugees find out that they are getting exhausted. Surprise, they're here to stay. Of course, that half (or more) of the German poplulation that dared to utter warnings against this madness when it seemed "so right" by Merkel to open the floodgates for the naive ones are pissed. Some others might come to their senses but it is too late. Meanwhile, the predominant parties (their support plummeting) argue if all these refugees should be allowed to pull in their families "for better integration". So much for Germany. We are royally fucked by irresponsible politicians just like the British with regard to the Brexit.

But indeed, Merkel has caused more damage. Maybe her madness has tipped the scales for the British to vote for leave. Mind me, the Germans and most other continental Europeans did not wish the British to go. We merely say IF you go, then there won't be any raisin-picking. Anyway, Merkel might have tipped the scales to scare out the British with her refugee-frenzy (be it founded or unfounded). And she has welded the eastern European countries into a block of opposition and more suspectible to people like Putin and his machinations who aptly pulls his stings to weaken the West as currently no other. More honestly, Merkel's position on the refugee-affair within Europe is pretty lonesome, for which I am grateful. Nevertheless, the division about this question within Europe has effects ranging far beyond this topic, which does not help the European countries as a divided Europe is a weak Europe. On top of that, Merkels head is so deep up the arse of Erdogan the Turk that it is an absolute embarrassment for Europe as a whole and Germany in particular. For fear that this undemocratic and corrupt supporter of religious radicals might push some millions of more Syrians and others over to Europe (most of them immediately heading and ending up in Germany), she permits any insult, hostage-taking of German citizens, payments of billions of Euros, denunciation of Turks opposed to Erdogans regime, political instrumetalization and propaganda of the mosques in Germany (most of them controlled absurdly by Turkish government officials) against us. The question might be asked why would Erdogan be able to threaten do do that? Because Europe and Merkel in particular fears or is unwilling to put a stop to it by securing the borders or by employing menacing economic pressure of which the EU would be very much capable of.

The ineptitude of Merkel is not only a bane for Germany, for Europe but for the West as a whole.
 

BattleSchool

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Merkel saw this ready supply of very desperate people who can be the next generation of Gastarbeiter and bingo.
Merkel needn't have turned to a host of opportunistic, semi-literate, unskilled migrants to satisfy a need for more guest workers. There are heaps of unemployed EU citizens in southern Europe, most of whom are well suited for employment in an advanced economy. For the most part, the youth of Greece, Italy, Portugal, and Spain, for example, aren't handicapped by a lack of education, or language skills. Nor, as a whole, do they have a problem with western culture, unlike some of the new arrivals. Additionally, few unemployed EU citizens are burdened with "trauma baggage" and/or customs antithetical to western society.

But for the sake of argument, let's imagine that there was still a labour shortfall after tapping into the wider EU labour market. Surely, the most logical course of action would be to post job adverts in international newspapers, etc. IOW, find and hire the most promising candidates. The Gulf States, for all their other failings, do this all the time. Why not Merkel's Germany?

It's probably a good move for Germany if you obviously ignore the social issues this might bring. Quite clever thinking. Again, if you ignore the social issues.
The guest worker program never panned out. How can German politicians honestly believe that guest migrants from much farther afield than Turkey are going to be a longterm success story?

The social problems created by this migration mania are but one part of the problem. Germany has invited in an underclass that resents its position in society. Once this underclass begins to stretch its political legs, things will really get ugly. Witness the interference of Erdogan in European politics, and his urging that Turks in the EU exercise their not inconsiderable political clout to influence policy in favour of a foreign power. This will only serve to spur the nut jobs on the far right to take to the streets, or worse. And 'round we go.

There's nothing clever about Merkel's decision to ring the dinner bell. It was a poor decision, what The Wall Street Journal called a "unilateral open-arms policy." It raised expectations that more often than not will end in disappointment. She sidelined those most in need of help, and encouraged a stampede of freeloaders.

Her decision will cost the Germany treasury billions, perhaps trillions, and German society far more. The rest of Europe will pay dearly for Merkel's mistake.

With apologies to those who did not support Merkel's manic moment, and those opposed to Brexit, the longterm impact of Brexit on Europe will pale in comparison with what the German chancellor wrought in 2015.
 
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Dr Zaius

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This is all very depressing to read. I knew most of it. But I love Europe and travel there often, and it upsets me greatly to see the West essentially trying to self-destruct.

Sadly, I’ve come to believe that over the coming decades, Europe is going to start suffering many of the worst problems which plague the US, and possibly much worse. I don’t know whether this is the result of misguided idealism combined with rancid ideology, or whether there are forces working to intentionally and permantly harm Western democracy. Possibly both.

What I can say is that from where I sit, politicians in both Europe and the US have been criminally moronic. They simply don’t seem to understand that this isn’t a game, that the rest of the world is not anywhere near as friendly or benign as they like to believe. Much of the world is dominated by dictators and tyrants who hide behind a veneer of normalcy, but in actually have nothing whatsoever in common with us.

China, for example, is not a bunch of benevolent wise men with a different way of looking at things. No, that country is ruled with an iron fist by hardcore communist despots who grow more avaricious and confrontational by the day. They have nothing but contempt for their Asian nneighbors and seek to dominate them — do you think they will treat us any better?

Our leaders are weak, naive, and ideologically blind. And they are weakening and dividing us against ourselves.

If we don’t adapt and get better leadership, we will fade away and eventually be supplanted. “The West” will become little more than a historical curiosity, with our history and culture revised and re-written by Chinese or Middle Eastern scholars. If we don’t start taking the world seriously, we’ll follow the Carthaginians.
 
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von Marwitz

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Her decision will cost the Germany treasury billions, perhaps trillions, and German society far more. The rest of Europe will pay dearly for Merkel's mistake.

With apologies to those who did not support Merkel's manic moment, and those opposed to Brexit, the longterm impact of Brexit on Europe will pale in comparison with what the German chancellor wrought in 2015.
I am afraid that you are correct on all points.
And again, I must add, we, the Germans, weren't asked. Nor has there been a parlamentary decision.
 

Mister T

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Foreign-born residents represent 22% of the Canadian population.

According to Statistics Canada, that number may rise to 30% by 2036.

The corresponding figure for Germany, even with the recent inflow, is much lower.
 

Sparafucil3

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Foreign-born residents represent 22% of the Canadian population.

According to Statistics Canada, that number may rise to 30% by 2036.

The corresponding figure for Germany, even with the recent inflow, is much lower.
Canada is a much larger country with plenty of room to absorb people. Her economy may not be able to absorb it but that is a different story to which I will defer to Mr. Doary. -- jim
 

Mister T

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Canada is a much larger country with plenty of room to absorb people. Her economy may not be able to absorb it but that is a different story to which I will defer to Mr. Doary. -- jim
Many foreign-born residents are living in Vancouver, Toronto or Montreal. Certainly not in the non-liveable wilderness that represent the majority of the Canadian space.