The British European Referendum

Should Britain leave the EU?


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    44

Paul M. Weir

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Maybe you should remember that when making your predictions about the US economy.
While I have commented on historical trends, like the rust belt phenomenon or the rush to the bottom in terms of wages, etc, I limit my economic predictions to the bleeding obvious. Something like "If the US deosn't do X then China will try to grab the market with Y" or "invest more in education" type of thing. I know when I haven't much of a clue.
 

tunixx

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No vague threat. You're trying to make the divorce as painful as you can. I hope they remember that when you come calling for help. You will eventually. Your worlds are way more symbiotic than either of you are willing to admit. You want to make them crawl now, I hope the remember that later and return the favor. -- jim
When in her history has Britain done anything out of altruism that wasn't in her own interest ?
 

Sparafucil3

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When in her history has Britain done anything out of altruism that wasn't in her own interest ?
Probably never. My suggestion remains how ever. You will need them at some point. You always do. -- jim
 

tunixx

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Probably never. My suggestion remains how ever. You will need them at some point. You always do. -- jim
British foreign policy in the past always had one goal: Trying to divide continental Europe in as many factions as possible (aka divide et impera). I'll be pretty glad if they stop to "help us".
 

Martin Mayers

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When in her history has Britain done anything out of altruism that wasn't in her own interest ?
Helped kick your arses twice in the last century when we could have put the no trespass signs out, and hid behind our navy whilst you and your old friends and neighbours the French battered shite out of each other ?

Not sure what 'gains' we made from standing up to Europe's bully on those two occasions other than losing an Empire and bankrupting ourselves bailing the holocaustineers out after they'd had their bit of fun with Europe's Jews, Gypsies, disabled, and homosexuals.

However, being lectured on foreign policy by a German certainly makes me feel like we made the right decisions.....
 

tunixx

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Helped kick your arses twice in the last century when we could have put the no trespass signs out, and hid behind our navy whilst you and your old friends and neighbours the French battered shite out of each other ?

Not sure what 'gains' we made from standing up to Europe's bully on those two occasions other than losing an Empire and bankrupting ourselves bailing the holocaustineers out after they'd had their bit of fun with Europe's Jews, Gypsies, disabled, and homosexuals.

However, being lectured on foreign policy by a German certainly makes me feel like we made the right decisions.....
Please don't get me wrong on this: Germany is responsible for WW2.

But still: Britain has done a really good job in making everyone believe they made all this for some higher ethical reasons. If they cared so much for continental Europeans - why didn't Britain declare war on the Soviet Union after they joined in the invasion of Poland ? The sole reason for the Declaration of war was they wanted to prevent German hegemony.

I am under the impression that many people in the UK feel about the EU the same way as they did about Nazi Germany in the past.
 

Paul_RS

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Paul_RS

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It seems we have a Brexit cabinet that doesn't do detail, lined up against an EU negotiating team that's been efficiently dotting I's and crossing T's since they were in nappies.

Are we f*cked, or are we f*cked?
 

Blackcloud6

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That said...

I do find it very humorous that some (many?) Brits are upset with a faceless foreign governance and taxation from afar.

What goes around...
 

Sparafucil3

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British foreign policy in the past always had one goal: Trying to divide continental Europe in as many factions as possible (aka divide et impera). I'll be pretty glad if they stop to "help us".
So why doesn't continental Europe bid them a fond farewell and move on with their lives? -- jim
 

Sparafucil3

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But still: Britain has done a really good job in making everyone believe they made all this for some higher ethical reasons. If they cared so much for continental Europeans - why didn't Britain declare war on the Soviet Union after they joined in the invasion of Poland ? The sole reason for the Declaration of war was they wanted to prevent German hegemony.
For the same reason the US didn't, we were war weary. Perhaps if Germany hadn't gone on their escapades, the Soviets would have had an excuse to annex all that former lebensraum. But to come here, as a German citizen, and call them out when your own countrymen created the opportunity and the reason for not responding, well, that's just rich. -- jim

PS: I am sure there was self interest in what was done in both world wars, but as far as the second one was concerned, good vs. evil was most definitely a theme. Now, if we could all agree on what was good and evil.
 

Martin Mayers

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Martin Mayers

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Please don't get me wrong on this: Germany is responsible for WW2.

But still: Britain has done a really good job in making everyone believe they made all this for some higher ethical reasons. If they cared so much for continental Europeans - why didn't Britain declare war on the Soviet Union after they joined in the invasion of Poland ? The sole reason for the Declaration of war was they wanted to prevent German hegemony.

I am under the impression that many people in the UK feel about the EU the same way as they did about Nazi Germany in the past.
We (Germany and France) couldn't protect Poland against Germany. We were too weak (hence the Phoney War). What could conceivably have been gained from declaring war on a country 1,500 miles away attacking a country's border 1,000 miles away? It was probably THE most sensible decision we made in the early stages of the war.

We had a secret protocol that only obligated us to support Poland against attack from Germany. We were under no obligation to declare war on Russia. And had we not been under legal obligation to declare war on Germany, I strongly suspect that we wouldn't have.

Germany had the privilege in WW1 of fighting war on other people's territory. When, within a generation, you have had your country absolutely devastated (in the case of France especially), it's quite sobering and probably effects your attitude to wage war (hence appeasement).
 

tunixx

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We (Germany and France) couldn't protect Poland against Germany. We were too weak (hence the Phoney War). What could conceivably have been gained from declaring war on a country 1,500 miles away attacking a country's border 1,000 miles away? It was probably THE most sensible decision we made in the early stages of the war.

We had a secret protocol that only obligated us to support Poland against attack from Germany. We were under no obligation to declare war on Russia. And had we not been under legal obligation to declare war on Germany, I strongly suspect that we wouldn't have.

Germany had the privilege in WW1 of fighting war on other people's territory. When, within a generation, you have had your country absolutely devastated (in the case of France especially), it's quite sobering and probably effects your attitude to wage war (hence appeasement).
Your posts are contradicting each other. A short while ago you told us a tearful story that Britain sacrificed her Empire (which was built by oppressing other countries) to save the jews and homosexuals (Alan Turing would love your story).
Just a day later you ask what could be gained by declaring war on the Soviet Union. So maybe now we can agree that the only reason war was declared on Germany because Britain thought it would be in her best interest to curb German dominance.

A lot of people in the UK are still thinking the EU owes the UK for all that. This is the reason they acted like they were something special while they were members of the EU always asking for a special treatment. While I regret Brexit because it is bad for all of us I am also glad the UK will never again obstruct any progress on the unification of a core Europe.
 

Martin Mayers

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Your posts are contradicting each other. A short while ago you told us a tearful story that Britain sacrificed her Empire (which was built by oppressing other countries) to save the jews and homosexuals (Alan Turing would love your story).
Just a day later you ask what could be gained by declaring war on the Soviet Union. So maybe now we can agree that the only reason war was declared on Germany because Britain thought it would be in her best interest to curb German dominance.

A lot of people in the UK are still thinking the EU owes the UK for all that. This is the reason they acted like they were something special while they were members of the EU always asking for a special treatment. While I regret Brexit because it is bad for all of us I am also glad the UK will never again obstruct any progress on the unification of a core Europe.
I'm not sure I recollect my story quite like you do. A reading issue? To be fair you are German and English isn't your first language so I can understand it.

Firstly Germany had an Empire also and yet again it makes my piss boil to listen to a German talking about British oppression. It would actually be funny if it wasn't so ironic. We've a very oppressive history. But you guys took the play book up and went for the 95 yard touchdown pass on that score not actually so long back. I'd tread carefully on the issue of oppression.

There is no contradiction. The entire British policy in the early part of World War 2 was focused around adopting a defensive posture, sitting behind our walls (in the UK and across the Empire) and waiting for Germany to attack whilst building up our strength. We had real plans in place for our senior leadership to move elsewhere if we were invaded (ie. to somewhere within our large empire) to continue the war. So, again, what could be gained from declaring war against the USSR? How would that achieve any of our long term and strategic aims?

I regret Brexit also. But you'll be absolutely fine given that, apparently we're awkward and only take take take. You've made me feel slightly better about it though so thanks for that.