The British European Referendum

Should Britain leave the EU?


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Paul_RS

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Pete North- a fanatical leaver...

For now the Brexiteers have the power and they think they've won. They seem to think that Brexit day is the end of the matter where we move on to other things. Sadly this is not the case. Our external relations are a continuum and there is no end point. Leaving without a deal only ensures the road to a new normal is longer and harder and much, much more costly. The power then ends up back in the hands of those who never wanted Brexit in the first place who'll be keen to undo as much of the damage as possible. The economic imperative will override the fundamental democratic argument underpinning Brexit.

That is the essential problem here in that this is very much a "Tory Brexit", seeing Brexit as a Trojan horse for a radical economic experiment rather than something worth doing for a principle. They may have won the key battles but failed to win the argument - and having failed to set us on a course to a viable destination, leavers will have a new fight on their hands to stay out of the EU. The promise of sovereignty loses its shine when you're not meeting mortgage payments.
 

Paul_RS

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"I never promised it would be a huge success" Nigel Farage


“I never said it would be a beneficial thing to leave and everyone would be better off,” Nigel Farage


"If Brexit is a disaster, I will go & live abroad, I'll go & live somewhere else" Nigel Farage


"There will continue to be free trade & access to the single market" Boris Johnson
 

Paul M. Weir

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I think I think I understand Boris's latest scheme, well sort of ... I think.
 

Paul_RS

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From one of the 17.4 million


Given everything I've read about this deal, would I support it?

No of course not. And here's why...
This Brexit process has gone far beyond the result in 2016.

It is now about the moral rightness and fallout from a bunch of lying bullshitters & charlatans winning, and the resulting corrosion of our politics (which is already well advanced courtesy of the same liars).
All the rampant idiocy we have recorded daily for over 3 years - from Farage to Hartley-Brewer to Brendan O'Neill to IDS to Redwood to Hoey to all those BXP MEPs - all of it will be vindicated and absorbed by history and the body politic.
This is not about Left vs Right; Europhile vs Eurosceptic; Free marketeer vs protectionist; young vs old. All are represented on both sides.

It is about adult realism that the world is complex vs a child-like simple view of international relations and trade; Simplism, basically
"But surely 17.4m people."

Here I have an advantage. When one is part of the 17.4m people, it provides special immunity from the "will of the people" argument, which let's be honest is nonsense. No one voted for this outcome. It has no mandate except in Brexiter MP imaginations
To be unvarnished about it, this 3-year travelling shitshow has been the most gigantic fuck-up in modern history. One has to be wilfully blind not to see it.

And if you can't see it now, you never will. You may get your 'win' and then you will feel no need to see it.
Was there a reasonable case to leave? Yes, as even Sir Ivan Rogers has alluded to.

We can argue about all of that of course but any hint of reasonableness or indeed reason is long gone, trampled under foot by simplist populism running riot.
So now we wait - wait to see if this deal really does get over the line.

A fortnight is, after all, a long time in politics.

Reason and morality are not done yet.
 

Paul_RS

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JUNE, 2016
-------------
EU1 : I say, I hear the troops are getting a bit restless
EU2 : yes, a number of them are even talking of mutiny
EU1 (aghast) : you mean go it alone? Don't they realise it will be economic suicide?
EU2: well quite, but the people are unhappy and the populists are pointing the finger at us
EU1: but that's just not true...
EU2: agreed
EU1: what we need is to show them how disastrous that would be... We need an example to show the rest of them.... A fall guy... But where would we find one stupid enough to volunteer to commit a very messy economic suicide? Dumb enough to tear their own country apart?
EU2: well, we may just have a candidate...

OCTOBER 2019
----------------
EU1: Well that was just brilliant
EU2: yes, even better than I expected
EU1: it certainly calmed the rest of the troops when they saw what a disaster its going to be for them
EU2: true, and the really funny thing is we actually offered them a much better deal, but they refused and insisted on a worse one
EU1: really, it's a win/win for us. Not only are the other troops quiet now they have seen what a disaster leaving would be, but we also get rid of that odious liar and idiot from our meetings
EU2: hmmm, yes do you think his lies will ever catch up with him?
EU1: unlikely, his sort always have someone else to blame for the chaos they cause. But who cares, he is their problem now
EU2: yes, cheers here's to a better and brighter future
EU1: for us anyway
(both laugh)
 

Mister T

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British PM sends a letter (unsigned) to Brussels asking for more delay.
But also sends simultaneously a second letter (signed) urging Brussels not to believe the first one. :unsure:
 

Paul M. Weir

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Does anyone have an idea of WTF is going on right now, never mind what is likely to happen?
 

Paul_RS

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I used to think Leavers on here were just misinformed.

I now know that they are incapable of becoming informed.
 

Paul_RS

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Does anyone have an idea of WTF is going on right now, never mind what is likely to happen?
fantasy is crashing into reality on a daily basis and the Brexiteers don't like it up 'em Captain Mainwaring

From Chris Grey:

Taking back control

Of course the scope for deciding what Britain now does about Brexit is only partly in its control. Much depends upon what the EU decide to do as regards granting an extension, its length, and its terms. At the time of writing* it is not clear what the decision will be or whether it will come today or not until Monday, just three days before no-deal Brexit will happen were no extension to be granted.

Note the word ‘granted’, for, with not much comment or fuss, we have now got used to the fact that it is the EU that calls the shots. Indeed, it is hardly remarked upon at all that ‘the do or die date’ of 31 October was of the EU’s choosing, not Britain’s.

It is an early, relatively small, lesson in the reality of what “taking back control” means. If the Brexiters, those great patriots, get their way we will have many more, and much greater, lessons in that stark reality.

Or from Ian Dunt:

Maybe the public won't find it shocking that a government lies to them, relentlessly, every day, or that it has no interest in governing, or that its tactical calculations involve pointing a gun at its own head and repeatedly pulling the trigger. Maybe we really are that much of a basement-level country that we find this kind of thing endearing.
Or maybe, behind the frenzy of activity and the daily jabber of nonsense, there is a clear sense of insecurity. They're terrified of being found out. People don't like being taken for fools. Anyone with a lingering faith in this country's better nature should point out that this is precisely what's happening.

 
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Paul M. Weir

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That has to be the best cartoon of what's facing England's take of Brexit. I say England (maybe Wales as well) as Scotland and N. Ireland will be forced to choose and may well decide to "hang separately" than to be dangling on the same row of shame as England.
 
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