The British European Referendum

Should Britain leave the EU?


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Brian W

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It's also the first tactic of mobsters. And we elected them.
 

Paul_RS

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"It’s always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it’s a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.”
 

Jeffrey D Myers

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Indeed, eerily reminiscent of Kristallnacht. Hopefully the UK and the US can relegate such occurrences to the oblivion deserved.
 

Brian W

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eerily reminiscent of Kristallnacht.
We in the US hardly need to look at German examples. 100 years ago yesterday.

The Omaha race riot occurred in Omaha, Nebraska, September 28–29, 1919. The race riot resulted in the brutal lynching of Will Brown, a black worker; the death of two white rioters; the attempted hanging of Mayor Edward Parsons Smith; the injuries of many Omaha Police Department officers as well as white and black civilians; and a public rampage by thousands of white rioters who set fire to the Douglas County Courthouse in downtown Omaha. It followed more than 20 race riots that occurred in major industrial cities of the United States during the Red Summer of 1919.
 

Paul_RS

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I am going to have words with the Mayor of Manchester.

The city should be making a fortune from tourism.

Where else on the planet can boast that it’s major convention space can be adapted to provide a bespoke alternate reality?
 

Paul M. Weir

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I am going to have words with the Mayor of Manchester.

The city should be making a fortune from tourism.

Where else on the planet can boast that it’s major convention space can be adapted to provide a bespoke alternate reality?
Any place that hosts a Spanky rally?
 

von Marwitz

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Now today Johnson is presenting the EU with his vaunted "plan". And he will show the world, what a hard bargainer is - as he fancies himself to be. Accept my "plan" or I quit.

Really now? After three years this?
If I had to describe it with a single word that has a British ring to it:

Mortifying...

This man should rather exit his world of delusions rather than the EU.
 

von Marwitz

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With almost 2700 posts in this thread over the past three and a half years and plenty of opportunity to make up one's mind about facts and non-facts that came up in the meantime, it would be interesting to know, how people think about Brexit now - one month within the date that the matter might be finally decided.

It appears, that the UK only has three options at this time:

  1. Remain in the EU.
  2. Leave accepting the longstanding deal offered by the EU.
  3. Hard Brexit.
I have created an updated poll with the abovementioned options here.
 

Brian W

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I have never voted because it isn't my country nor my EU. I think it a really odd thing to do, but my fellow country men are lining up to follow a pumpkin into a ditch so I don't feel enough to make real comment on it.
 

Paul M. Weir

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Thinking back to when I got my own first TV, where is "Spitting Image" (1984-1996) when you need it.

On second thoughts, you have live broadcast of the HoC and the WH, parody of parody rarely works.
 

Paul_RS

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Paul_RS

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Christopher Booker described wishful thinking in terms of

"the fantasy cycle" ... a pattern that recurs in personal lives, in politics, in history – and in storytelling. When we embark on a course of action which is unconsciously driven by wishful thinking, all may seem to go well for a time, in what may be called the "dream stage". But because this make-believe can never be reconciled with reality, it leads to a "frustration stage" as things start to go wrong, prompting a more determined effort to keep the fantasy in being. As reality presses in, it leads to a "nightmare stage" as everything goes wrong, culminating in an "explosion into reality", when the fantasy finally falls apart.
What stage are we at just now? I reckon somewhere between the frustration and nightmare stages. 😏
 
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von Marwitz

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What I find quite astonishing that even with hindsight, 40% still believe it is the correct decision to leave the EU.

For that same reason, as much as I would like the UK to remain in the EU I now think it must leave.

Polls go up and down 5 percent rather easily over the time. All the more in a populist environment. So basically, the UK is still fundamentally divided upon the issue.

It does not really matter whether 50%, 45% or 40% are for leaving the EU. What matters is that despite hindsight, more or less half of the population believes leaving is better for their country. In other words, nothing but experiencing what will happen will change their minds.

The UK is an important country. But an important country which might switch from an anti-EU attitude complete with blocking EU policies from within to a pro-EU attitude bringing things within the EU forward is not an asset for the EU. As much as it hurts to say it - under such circumstances, it is a liability for the EU.

So those 40%, 45%, or 50% that want to leave must live through the consequences of leaving. You might be able to ignore anything - but not reality. So I reckon only the reality of the concequences of leaving might change their minds.

If they live through the consequences of leaving being bullshit, then (and only then), maybe 30%, 35% or max 40% might still think it was a good idea to leave, i.e. the shift of opinion within the population might become so substantial, that you cannot call it a divided population any more. This way or the other.

If - after living through it - they still want to stay outside. Fine with me. Then the EU is not burdened with a member that does not want to be a member. If they want to return - as I said before - I would welcome them anytime, but only on equal terms without any cherrypicking, without reduced contributions, without any special treatment.
 

bendizoid

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Why don’t you guys just leave the EU and then quickly rejoin? Sounds like a good compromise to me.
 
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