The British European Referendum

Should Britain leave the EU?


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holdit

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Johnson: "There is no task so simple that government cannot overcomplicate if it doesn’t want to do it. And there are few tasks so complex that humanity cannot solve if we have a real sense of mission to pull them off."

400,000 people worked on the Apollo programme at a total cost of a quarter trillion USD. MIT designed and built the Apollo guidance computer. The issues were vast and exceptionally complex and its design ground breaking. Boris Johnson underestimates the task at hand once again.
Classic management approach according to Dilbert..."Anything I don't understand is simple, anything I don't know how to do is easy."
 

Paul M. Weir

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If the Little Englanders still wish to Brexit even after the various parliamentary disasters and even faced with a hard Brexit, then fine by me., they are now better informed. I would definitely want to see a 2nd referendum, the first was a real "pig in a poke" thing.
 

Martin Mayers

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If the Little Englanders still wish to Brexit even after the various parliamentary disasters and even faced with a hard Brexit, then fine by me., they are now better informed. I would definitely want to see a 2nd referendum, the first was a real "pig in a poke" thing.
No second referendum appropriate.

They (Brexiteers) either should get on and get Brexit over the line or scrap the whole thing.

British Parliament should decree a deadline for this...perhaps 31st October might be appropriate. If it hasn't happened, and doesn't look like happening then, then finally accept it's dead in the water. And take whatever medicine comes their way as a political party.

We don't need a second referendum. It will achieve little.

We now have a PM who has categorically stated that it will be done by 31st October. So, that's great. Everyone should be happy to set that as the deadline for 'Brexit' or "Bullshit"
 

Brian W

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If the Little Englanders still wish to Brexit even after the various parliamentary disasters and even faced with a hard Brexit, then fine by me., they are now better informed. I would definitely want to see a 2nd referendum, the first was a real "pig in a poke" thing.
Paul,

Is there a real chance for Irish unification with a hard brexit? Do you think it would work out if there was unification?
 

Paul M. Weir

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Paul,

Is there a real chance for Irish unification with a hard brexit? Do you think it would work out if there was unification?
Quite honestly I don't know, BUT Brexit is the one thing that could trigger it.

What might be a plausible scenario is that Brexit first triggers Scottish independence. That would leave NI as a very gangrenous limb dangling on by threads of rotting flesh at the same time that England is up to its neck (and beyond) with a combination of Brexit problems and the divvy up of British state assets (army, navy, air force, nukes) between England and Scotland. While the NI colonists mainly came from Scotland, most of the current Scots would not want to touch the likes of the DUP with a sterilised red hot stainless steel barge pole and besides they would be too busy negotiating re-entry into the EU.

The demographics are trending more in favour of the Nationalists, parity could be achieved in a decade anyway. Brexit will impoverish NI anyway and while the Republic will likely get some form of relief/support from the EU, England will have little to spare to do the same for NI. The Good Friday agreement has already broken down AGAIN. In that situation NI will be practically abandoned by the English government, too much else on its plate.

If an effort is made to reunify it will be messy, likely bloody. Due to Scottish voters preferring Labour and Scottish Nationalists, England on it's own will swing more Tory than the former UK. That means the DUP will be less needed by the Tories to stay in power and will be put in the bin like a used tampon. The will make them even more fanatic and despairing. The EU might supply some sort of peace keeping force. The Poles might contribute a battalion, made up of Polish ex-builders and plumbers driven out of England :sneaky:. One sure thing is that the EU will get some delight in thumbing their noses at England and NI could be such an opportunity, for humanitarian reasons of course.

I'm digging scenarios out of the top of my head, but one thing sure is that whatever happens, NI will be "interesting" for quite some time.
 

Paul_RS

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No second referendum appropriate.

They (Brexiteers) either should get on and get Brexit over the line or scrap the whole thing.

British Parliament should decree a deadline for this...perhaps 31st October might be appropriate. If it hasn't happened, and doesn't look like happening then, then finally accept it's dead in the water. And take whatever medicine comes their way as a political party.

We don't need a second referendum. It will achieve little.

We now have a PM who has categorically stated that it will be done by 31st October. So, that's great. Everyone should be happy to set that as the deadline for 'Brexit' or "Bullshit"
.
@IanDunt
on Johnson: “He’ll make a halfhearted attempt to renegotiate with the Europeans - he’ll say it’s the backstop or nothing. He’ll try to get no-deal through Parliament - Parliament will say no. Then, I would suggest, we’re on for a snap election

If this government fails then Brexit fails. Simples
 

Paul_RS

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Quite honestly I don't know, BUT Brexit is the one thing that could trigger it.

What might be a plausible scenario is that Brexit first triggers Scottish independence. That would leave NI as a very gangrenous limb dangling on by threads of rotting flesh at the same time that England is up to its neck (and beyond) with a combination of Brexit problems and the divvy up of British state assets (army, navy, air force, nukes) between England and Scotland. While the NI colonists mainly came from Scotland, most of the current Scots would not want to touch the likes of the DUP with a sterilised red hot stainless steel barge pole and besides they would be too busy negotiating re-entry into the EU.

The demographics are trending more in favour of the Nationalists, parity could be achieved in a decade anyway. Brexit will impoverish NI anyway and while the Republic will likely get some form of relief/support from the EU, England will have little to spare to do the same for NI. The Good Friday agreement has already broken down AGAIN. In that situation NI will be practically abandoned by the English government, too much else on its plate.

If an effort is made to reunify it will be messy, likely bloody. Due to Scottish voters preferring Labour and Scottish Nationalists, England on it's own will swing more Tory than the former UK. That means the DUP will be less needed by the Tories to stay in power and will be put in the bin like a used tampon. The will make them even more fanatic and despairing. The EU might supply some sort of peace keeping force. The Poles might contribute a battalion, made up of Polish ex-builders and plumbers driven out of England :sneaky:. One sure thing is that the EU will get some delight in thumbing their noses at England and NI could be such an opportunity, for humanitarian reasons of course.

I'm digging scenarios out of the top of my head, but one thing sure is that whatever happens, NI will be "interesting" for quite some time.
Not much love for labour north of the border. Sadly the SNP is as economically illiterate as the the Brexiteers. I would expect to see the Lib Dem’s form the main opposition to the SNP following a general election.
 

Vinnie

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There is a move towards independence in Scotland but the problem with tgat is the same as the problem with Brexit. You want independence, great. What is your currency, your banking system, your trade deals? All these questions can be answered certainly, but not before the end of the referendum.
I woukd hate to see us plunged into yet more uncertainty.
 

Paul M. Weir

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Euro? I'm sure the EU would welcome a Scottish application, on it's merits, definitely not to poke the English in the eye, of course.
 

holdit

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So they'd only accept the result of a second referendum (sorry - 'People's Vote'), if it went their way? Why am I not surprised:

You do realise that they're talking about voting against in in parliament, don't you? That they wouldn't actually have the power to deny the result unless a majority of MPs voted similarly? That maybe they feel the huge numbers of UK citizens wanting to remain should be represented?

Try thinking for yourself for once, Toby. You might find it more enlightening than regurgitating the latest things right-wing propagandists are telling you what to think.

Your conviction that everyone who disagrees with you is some kind of fascist makes me wonder if you're actually a social justice warrior...
 

holdit

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The EU might supply some sort of peace keeping force. The Poles might contribute a battalion, made up of Polish ex-builders and plumbers driven out of England :sneaky:. One sure thing is that the EU will get some delight in thumbing their noses at England and NI could be such an opportunity, for humanitarian reasons of course. I'm digging scenarios out of the top of my head, but one thing sure is that whatever happens, NI will be "interesting" for quite some time.
Interesting in all the wrong ways, and I think an EU peacekeeping force could well be necessary. I hear a lot of stuff from barstool republicans about how everything would be grand following a United Ireland and how it would be "the making of us" (seriously). They seem to forget the Unionist/Loyalists who would want no part of it, and would be happy to make their point with bullets and bombs, only this time in Dublin instead of London. Remember too that these people are not amenable to reason. Just look at the DUP and the stance it takes on Brexit and the backstop, despite the fact the Northern Ireland voted remain, and the Northern Ireland business community has come out firmly against a hard Brexit and hard border. This is what happens when people define themselves not by what they are, but by what they hate. Short of ethnic cleansing, I don't see a solution. For the record I wouldn't be in favour of ethnic cleaning, of course, no matter how much the antics of some northern knuckle-draggers might sometimes make that seem almost like a tempting option.
 

holdit

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I forgot to say the the one good thing about Boris in number 10 is that he is not a conviction politician; he's very much the pragmatist (I'm being generous - it sounds better than opportunist), happy to ditch tomorrow what he is hell-bent on today, and force through this week what he ruled out last week.

Remember, for Boris it's already a case of "mission accomplished" - he's in Number 10.
 

Brian W

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They seem to forget the Unionist/Loyalists who would want no part of it, and would be happy to make their point with bullets and bombs, only this time in Dublin instead of London. Remember too that these people are not amenable to reason.
If the UK ditched them, would they be fighting for independence from Dublin then, or some kind of partial autonomy under some form of federation with the rest of Ireland?
 

holdit

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If the UK ditched them, would they be fighting for independence from Dublin then, or some kind of partial autonomy under some form of federation with the rest of Ireland?
More like-rejoining the UK I'd say, although I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even know themselves. Partial autonomy in a federal Ireland wouldn't cut it for them, though.
 

Brian W

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More like-rejoining the UK I'd say
My assumption was that the UK had cut them loose and wouldn't want them back but I suppose that wouldn't stop them from saying they wanted back.
 

Martin Mayers

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If the UK ditched them, would they be fighting for independence from Dublin then, or some kind of partial autonomy under some form of federation with the rest of Ireland?
They consider themselves UK citizens. Not Irish.
 

holdit

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They consider themselves UK citizens. Not Irish.
Correct, and their tragedy is that instead of seeing them as British, most of their fellow UK citizens in Britain see them as a particularly awkward group of Irishmen. And as has been pointed out, it's a group mainland UK would love to jettison, particularly since it's been decided that Brexit is now more important than preserving the Union.
 
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