The British European Referendum

Should Britain leave the EU?


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Paul_RS

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Robert Tombs is a great historian and has an interesting take on things:


You really do post some absolute shite on this debate. Thoughts on his contributions by somebody who really does understand the subject matter forensically....

Robert Tombs, is an emeritus (i.e., retired) professor of French history at the University of Cambridge. His specialism is nineteenth-century France, particularly the Paris Commune. His work, focused on the political culture of the working classes, led him to revise a number of myths associated with the history of the Commune.

Why the Spectator thinks that this should qualify him to write detailed expositions on the UK's trade relations with the EU and the rest of the world, or act as an attack dog on Sir Ivan Rogers, it does not explain.

In strict terms of Tombs's academic qualifications and experience, he is no better equipped for the task set by the Spectator than your average garage mechanic. Certainly, he has no credentials which would support any claim to expertise on his current topic where he grandly reaches down to tell us, "What Sir Ivan Rogers gets wrong about Brexit", and asserts that, "No deal is still the best option for the UK".

Then, this is the game the legacy media plays. Trading on prestige rather than knowledge, for its comment the Spectator goes to the founding co-editor of an obscure propaganda website styled Briefings for Brexit - a site which, incidentally, only gets a tiny fraction of the traffic levels that this blog enjoys.

But readers who might expect Tombs to make up for his lack of expertise with quality of argument, and that he might draw in support unimpeachable primary sources, will be disappointed. This is not how the game is played. Rather, styles are polemical rather than reasoned, while third party sources are used to conceal the thinness of arguments and confer unwarranted legitimacy on unsustainable claims. And, in many instances, no sources are offered.
 
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Paul_RS

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The article is behind a paywall so the article can't be read unless you're one of the Torygraph faithful. I did look up Mr Tombs and found out that he retired in 2016, which chimes with the following, written in a comment below the piece:

"Like most optimistic Brexiteers with a good sense of humor, the author is a year or 2 from retirement
and happy to leave the next gen to pick up the pieces.
Like the bloke who leaves his missus to pick up the cheque - classy."
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">the room next door - Boris Johnson Again <a href="https://t.co/RnTwQB8fyM">pic.twitter.com/RnTwQB8fyM</a></p>&mdash; Michael Spicer (@MrMichaelSpicer) <a href=" ">July 15, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

Paul_RS

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As I keep saying - yes, it's all about democracy:

 

Paul_RS

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Remainers keep trying to overturn the democratic referendum result:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Happy <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/EuropeDay?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc^tfw">#EuropeDay</a>! <a href="https://t.co/dUQziohrE8">pic.twitter.com/dUQziohrE8</a></p>&mdash; Polly Polak (@PolakPolly) <a href=" ">May 9, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

Paul_RS

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Martin Mayers

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I have nothing in this but I thought the referendum was non-binding. Meaning that it did not have to be done.
Correct. You'd have thought, by now (realistically one has to say we are no nearer Brexit than we were in 2016) that they'd put the whole thing to bed and say "it was an idea, but it cannot be made to work".

By now though, of course it's become a political punchbag for lots of Tory psychopaths to knock around as part of their in party political squabbles.
 

Toby Pilling

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I have nothing in this but I thought the referendum was non-binding. Meaning that it did not have to be done.
The government said it would implement the decision when it was introducing the referendum - no-one made anything of it being technically non-binding or just advisory during the referendum.
In the immediate aftermath, every political party (even the Lib Dems, the most pro-EU) said they'd respect the result. Over time, they've gone back on their words.
 

Vinnie

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The government said it would implement the decision when it was introducing the referendum - no-one made anything of it being technically non-binding or just advisory during the referendum.
In the immediate aftermath, every political party (even the Lib Dems, the most pro-EU) said they'd respect the result. Over time, they've gone back on their words.
Yup, the selection both parties said they would abide by it. They tried but Brexiteers scuppered that. If the ERG had voted with the government, we would be out of the EU by now.
So, who is responsible for this failure?
 

holdit

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The government said it would implement the decision when it was introducing the referendum - no-one made anything of it being technically non-binding or just advisory during the referendum.
In the immediate aftermath, every political party (even the Lib Dems, the most pro-EU) said they'd respect the result. Over time, they've gone back on their words.
The delay is due to trying to avoid a crash-out Brexit in the teeth of extremist opposition that wants just that. Please indicate where on the ballot paper a crashout exit was specified.
 

Martin Mayers

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The government said it would implement the decision when it was introducing the referendum - no-one made anything of it being technically non-binding or just advisory during the referendum.
In the immediate aftermath, every political party (even the Lib Dems, the most pro-EU) said they'd respect the result. Over time, they've gone back on their words.
Many Governments have stated that they would implement some form of significant policy/policy change and reversed their position when it's become unworkable. I don't quite understand why, all of a sudden, this is something that the country must destroy itself on so as to implement at almost literally all cost.

Leave won the referendum. I think many/most remainers at the time, and I include myself, thought "ok, well that's that". The whole thing has since turned into an absolute fucking nightmare. A complete and thorough abortion. NOT because of those remainers who 'remoaned' but because YOUR guys, the brexit side, cannot come to a consensus on how it will be implemented both practically AND doctrinally.

They still, two and a half years later, cannot suss out how to implement some of the technical issues revolving around the whole thing.

The only manner in which Johnson seems to suggest we can actually exit is a) without a deal and b) by circumventing Parliament to make it so. Jesus, you talk about fucking Democracy. Yet, on the other hand, you seem to be quite content to trash a Parliamentary system that has been in place since the 13th Century. Not to mention pretty much destroying the sacrosanct Union of the United Kingdom.

That's just madness. Myopic, single minded, obstinate, insanity. And the only defence in favour of it all seems to be "Democracy". Which part of 'Democracy' gets placed on the sacrificial altar to reach your idea of Democracy?
 

holdit

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Correct. You'd have thought, by now (realistically one has to say we are no nearer Brexit than we were in 2016) that they'd put the whole thing to bed and say "it was an idea, but it cannot be made to work".

By now though, of course it's become a political punchbag for lots of Tory psychopaths to knock around as part of their in party political squabbles.
Tory party political squabbles revolve mostly around Europe, and have done since John Major's day. Thatcher kept a lid on it but like Tito, once she was gone the pot started to boil over. Where May put herself in such a bind was that she made Tory party unity her priority, which was doomed to fail, because there is no and never will be unity in the Tory party when it comes to Europe. That's why the "London-London" negotiations held up the London-Brussels negotiations, as Phil Hogan put it. A new Tory leader won't change this.
 

Martin Mayers

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I would not describe centuries of, at many times genocidal, warfare, conquest and starvation "sacrosanct".
I agree. But the Union seems sacrosanct to the Tories...until something more important comes along like Brexit it appears.

I'm with the Scots...leave the sorry mess that it's become behind and make your own pathway in a Europe without the tail trying to wag the dog all the time. And, frankly, without all the British fucking whinging and whining over, like, EVERYTHING.
 

Toby Pilling

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The delay is due to trying to avoid a crash-out Brexit in the teeth of extremist opposition that wants just that. Please indicate where on the ballot paper a crashout exit was specified.
Please indicate where on the ballot paper Brexit in Name Only was specified.
 
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