The Battle of Manila 1945

[jhaas666]

I need to comment on one item I believe to be incorrect. About 90% of all civilian losses were caused by the Japanese defenders. The defenders burned down all the residential districts to create clear fields of fire, and that is where most of the civilians lived. Thousands were found with their hands tied, and other stuff to gruesome to go into. The figure of 70% of civilian losses caused by US forces is incorrect. I use to work at the Ohio History Connection, the state historical society of Ohio. We have there the Beightler Papers (Gen. Robert S. Beightler), he was commander of the 37th Infantry Division, the Buckeye Division, which was the Ohio National Guard division. We also have there the Beightler Photograph collection (several thousand prints and negatives), and the Beightler Map collection. I did presentations on the Battle for Manila, using those materials, and wrote an article about the 37th in the Pacific War. The Japanese defended the massive government buildings in downtown Manila to the death. The Ice Plant, the City Hall, the Theater, the Police Station, the Commerce Building, the Legislative Building, the Finance Building, the Interior Ministry Building, the Agriculture Building, the Intramuros, the University complex, and other such massive structures in Manila. Civilians did not live in those buildings and any that had lived in near by neighborhoods had long fled or had been killed by the defenders. Most of the heavy US fire from the 155's, the 105's, and the tank and tank destroyers were over open sights, direct fire into those buildings with only defenders inside. Some indirect fire was used in the final assault on the Intramuros which involved 155's, 105's, 8-inch howitzers, 4.2 inch mortars, etc. Very few civilians were inside the fortress. Very oddly however, 37th Division troops did rescue several hundred civilians from a couple of churches inside the Intramuros. Yes, no doubt, thousands of civilians died in Manila in 1945, but the vast majority of those thousands were caused by and perpetrated by the defenders.
You can view some of the pictures from the photograph collection on Ohio Memory, a free Ohio History Connection web site. A similar figure is mentioned in the video at the beginning of this thread and I do not know where he got that number, but I believe it is incorrect as well.

 

[ASLSARGE]

I need to comment on one item I believe to be incorrect. About 90% of all civilian losses were caused by the Japanese defenders. The defenders burned down all the residential districts to create clear fields of fire, and that is where most of the civilians lived. Thousands were found with their hands tied, and other stuff to gruesome to go into. The figure of 70% of civilian losses caused by US forces is incorrect. I use to work at the Ohio History Connection, the state historical society of Ohio. We have there the Beightler Papers (Gen. Robert S. Beightler), he was commander of the 37th Infantry Division, the Buckeye Division, which was the Ohio National Guard division. We also have there the Beightler Photograph collection (several thousand prints and negatives), and the Beightler Map collection. I did presentations on the Battle for Manila, using those materials, and wrote an article about the 37th in the Pacific War. The Japanese defended the massive government buildings in downtown Manila to the death. The Ice Plant, the City Hall, the Theater, the Police Station, the Commerce Building, the Legislative Building, the Finance Building, the Interior Ministry Building, the Agriculture Building, the Intramuros, the University complex, and other such massive structures in Manila. Civilians did not live in those buildings and any that had lived in near by neighborhoods had long fled or had been killed by the defenders. Most of the heavy US fire from the 155's, the 105's, and the tank and tank destroyers were over open sights, direct fire into those buildings with only defenders inside. Some indirect fire was used in the final assault on the Intramuros which involved 155's, 105's, 8-inch howitzers, 4.2 inch mortars, etc. Very few civilians were inside the fortress. Very oddly however, 37th Division troops did rescue several hundred civilians from a couple of churches inside the Intramuros. Yes, no doubt, thousands of civilians died in Manila in 1945, but the vast majority of those thousands were caused by and perpetrated by the defenders.
You can view some of the pictures from the photograph collection on Ohio Memory, a free Ohio History Connection web site. A similar figure is mentioned in the video at the beginning of this thread and I do not know where he got that number, but I believe it is incorrect as well.

Rather than simply use American sources, I also made liberal use of Filipino sources as well. Many, thanks to friends and relatives living in the Philippines at the time, I was able to use even though these sources are not normally available to outsiders. One book, now out of print, titled "By Sword and Fire: the battle of Manila" was written by a Filipino historian. It is mainly a collection of stories collected by Filipino survivors of the battle. Many of their stories talk about the "terrible explosions from the shells" that blew apart homes and offices and churches killing many of those inside. The author questions XIV Corps very liberal use of artillery within the city. Many other native sources do also. General Beightler made comment that he would always expend as much artillery as needed to save American lives. He considered non-combatants as "in the way".
There are no records anywhere that say "the Japanese killed "x" number of civilians and the American artillery killed "y" number of civilians. The percentage I listed is a compilation from US and Filipino sources. It is up for debate by anyone desiring to research it in detail. There is no argument the Japanese purposely went out of their way to brutalize and kill civilians throughout the battle. The rape of girls and women from 2 to 95 years old in the Bayview Hotel by soldiers coming off the line for a break is typical. In several instances, if the girl fought back she was bayoneted....in a couple instances women reported the Japanese even raped the bodies of those women they had just killed. Utmost savagery does not begin to describe their actions. Many times the Japanese would barricade civilians inside a home, set fire to it, and then machine gun anyone attempting to escape.
Regarding your comment about "very few civilians were inside the fortress (Intramuros)" is completely wrong. When the Americans began their assault on the walled city there were (estimated) to be somewhere around 4000 Filipinos inside. Only a few hundred made it out alive. Hundreds were executed by the Japanese. Many more were killed when the Americans leveled the ancient city with artillery (per eyewitness reports). In one bizarre twist, the Japanese released about four hundred civilians from the San Augustine Church prior to the Americans assaulting it. At the Philippine General Hospital the Japanese trapped more than seven thousand civilians and used them as human shields. When the Americans were unable to gain access through normal methods, they called in the artillery to level the building.
It is completely understandable that American official records would not want to take any blame for killing non-combatants. Bad PR. It did happen though. The "official" estimate is 100,000 civilians were killed during the battle. Most Filipino sources feel this number is probably about half of the actual number killed.
North of the Pasig the destruction was mainly due to Japanese demolitions and setting fires. South of the Pasig, the destruction is almost entirely the result of American actions. The 37th Division expended more artillery and mortar shells during the battle for Manila than they did in any other campaign they were part of in WWII. That says a lot. Somewhere in one of my books I have a breakdown of how many 81mm, 105mm, 155mm, 240mm, and 107mm shells were expended by the 37th. I do recall something like 42,000 107mm shells alone. I believe the other calibers were similar.

 

[ASLSARGE]

Yes, Gen Yamashita would pay the ultimate price after the war for the civilian casualties suffered here even tough he had initially ordered the evacuation of Manila but was countermanded by Rear Adm. Sanji and Gen Yokoyama. However, Yamashita was not without fault as his treatment of civilians in China, Malaya and Singapore did little to uphold his defense either.

I assume you are referring to Rear Admiral Sanji Iwabuchi, the naval commander in Manila. During a naval battle earlier in the war his ship was sunk by American naval forces. Breaking tradition, he did not go down with his ship and lost face by doing so. When he was ordered by Yamashita to withdraw from Manila, he saw an opportunity to regain "face" by fighting to the death in Manila....a chance to "go down with his ship" as it were. He purposely delayed any action until it was too late and the Americans had the city completely surrounded, sealing his fate.

 

[Eagle4ty]

I assume you are referring to Rear Admiral Sanji Iwabuchi, the naval commander in Manila. During a naval battle earlier in the war his ship was sunk by American naval forces. Breaking tradition, he did not go down with his ship and lost face by doing so. When he was ordered by Yamashita to withdraw from Manila, he saw an opportunity to regain "face" by fighting to the death in Manila....a chance to "go down with his ship" as it were. He purposely delayed any action until it was too late and the Americans had the city completely surrounded, sealing his fate.

Interesting side note on Yamashita: COL Howe, the CDR of the 128th Inf Rgt 32nd "Red Arrow" Div, was killed in a plane crash going to receive the Surrender of the Japanese in the Philippines so 1LT Baumann sporting his best uniform took a 24 man patrol to the meeting place. Upon meeting with the Japanese command he was asked, "By what authority do you receive the surrender of the Imperial Japanese Army in the Philippines?" His reply was a little less formal than probably expected as he thumbed a point towards his collar and exclaimed "This is my G__ D____ authority." The rest of the meeting would go a bit more cordial and Yamashita would formally surrender to BG McBride at Baguio, Luzon a day later.

 

[jhaas666]

Most all of what you said above is correct and i agree with most of it. Yes, the figure of 100,000 civilians is not correct. It was 200,00 to 250,000 Filipino deaths. What i did not make clear was that the vast majority, the vast majority of those deaths were caused directly and indirectly by the actions, policies, practices and procedures of the Japanese defenders. You noted many examples above of what they did to the Filipino civilians in the city.
Your example of the Philippine General Hospital is a case in point. You mentioned it was reduced by artillery and the defenders were holding 7000 civilians as human shields. Well another possible scenario for the American attackers would have been to put down a heavy smoke screen to cover the approaches to the building and get the infantrymen close in, hopefully with minimal losses. Once adjacent to the building, break in and clear it room by room, floor by floor with the usual close assault weapons: flame throwers, satchel charges, grenades (frag & WP), BAR's, Grease guns, Tommy guns, M-1's, carbines, 45's, shovels and knives. Result: building cleared, all Japanese dead, probably a huge number of U.S. casualties and how many civilians lost? But one thing you can be darn sure of is when the defenders saw that the jig was up, and they were about to be wiped out or forced to flee the building, they would have tried to kill every hostage they could get their hands on; absolutely a sure thing.

You mentioned the Intramuros, which did contain civilians and it should be noted that US artillery preparation into the Intramuros was aimed at Japanese positions and installations. Those positions and defenses were given to us by Filipino civilians, at the risk of their lives, so we could hit defensive positions and avoid likely locations of civilians. The artillery preparation was not indiscriminate, shells were not randomly thrown into the interior of the Intramuros. Each battery had specific targets and flying forward artillery observers corrected for effect.
In researching this i found a diagram/map of the Intramuros and all the US artillery batteries, tank and tank destroyer platoons, with their positions around the Intramuros, their lines of site and their individual targets in the outer walls of the fortress. As you know the point of that was to create breaches in the walls to let the infantrymen get into the defensive positions.
And you mentioned the various artillery pieces involved in the battles in Manila and i found another resource that does list the approximate number of shells from each of those tubes; yes, there were truly staggering numbers as you noted.
But what must be remembered is this: the paramount issue in the minds of the vast majority of generals in Asia or Europe was to minimize the losses incurred among their troops. Spoken or unspoken, those officers did their best to keep Blue Star Mothers from becoming Gold Star Mothers. The Paramount issue was.........
I am getting a little groggy now, spent 5 hours at a car repair place today, and getting ready to watch the hockey game. But in finale the overwhelming percentage of civilian deaths were the direct, and indirect, result of the defenders overt actions, policies, and long standing practices of indiscriminate brutality in China and Malaya and other places.

 

[ASLSARGE]

Most all of what you said above is correct and i agree with most of it. Yes, the figure of 100,000 civilians is not correct. It was 200,00 to 250,000 Filipino deaths. What i did not make clear was that the vast majority, the vast majority of those deaths were caused directly and indirectly by the actions, policies, practices and procedures of the Japanese defenders. You noted many examples above of what they did to the Filipino civilians in the city.
Your example of the Philippine General Hospital is a case in point. You mentioned it was reduced by artillery and the defenders were holding 7000 civilians as human shields. Well another possible scenario for the American attackers would have been to put down a heavy smoke screen to cover the approaches to the building and get the infantrymen close in, hopefully with minimal losses. Once adjacent to the building, break in and clear it room by room, floor by floor with the usual close assault weapons: flame throwers, satchel charges, grenades (frag & WP), BAR's, Grease guns, Tommy guns, M-1's, carbines, 45's, shovels and knives. Result: building cleared, all Japanese dead, probably a huge number of U.S. casualties and how many civilians lost? But one thing you can be darn sure of is when the defenders saw that the jig was up, and they were about to be wiped out or forced to flee the building, they would have tried to kill every hostage they could get their hands on; absolutely a sure thing.

You mentioned the Intramuros, which did contain civilians and it should be noted that US artillery preparation into the Intramuros was aimed at Japanese positions and installations. Those positions and defenses were given to us by Filipino civilians, at the risk of their lives, so we could hit defensive positions and avoid likely locations of civilians. The artillery preparation was not indiscriminate, shells were not randomly thrown into the interior of the Intramuros. Each battery had specific targets and flying forward artillery observers corrected for effect.
In researching this i found a diagram/map of the Intramuros and all the US artillery batteries, tank and tank destroyer platoons, with their positions around the Intramuros, their lines of site and their individual targets in the outer walls of the fortress. As you know the point of that was to create breaches in the walls to let the infantrymen get into the defensive positions.
And you mentioned the various artillery pieces involved in the battles in Manila and i found another resource that does list the approximate number of shells from each of those tubes; yes, there were truly staggering numbers as you noted.
But what must be remembered is this: the paramount issue in the minds of the vast majority of generals in Asia or Europe was to minimize the losses incurred among their troops. Spoken or unspoken, those officers did their best to keep Blue Star Mothers from becoming Gold Star Mothers. The Paramount issue was.........
I am getting a little groggy now, spent 5 hours at a car repair place today, and getting ready to watch the hockey game. But in finale the overwhelming percentage of civilian deaths were the direct, and indirect, result of the defenders overt actions, policies, and long standing practices of indiscriminate brutality in China and Malaya and other places.

Its obvious this discussion will go no where. I will not endeavor to change your mind. It is already set in stone based upon your data, and that's fine. We agree to disagree. You might persuade me to accept your viewpoint by telling me that you spent more than twenty years in researching the battle, actually talked personally with survivors and veterans of the battle including a Filipino Colonel, made three separate trips to Manila to do further research, walked the entire battlefield on foot, and used nearly one hundred different types of research materials from multiple sources for your data. I know I did. Compromise......the Japanese killed a lot of civilians, US artillery killed a lot of civilians. The triviality of what percentage was done by each of each is not worth arguing over.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

.... spent more than twenty years in researching the battle, actually talked personally with survivors and veterans of the battle including a Filipino Colonel, made three separate trips to Manila to do further research, walked the entire battlefield on foot, and used nearly one hundred different types of research materials from multiple sources for your data. I know I did.

You should use this blurb in the promo

 

[von Marwitz]

But what must be remembered is this: the paramount issue in the minds of the vast majority of generals in Asia or Europe was to minimize the losses incurred among their troops. Spoken or unspoken, those officers did their best to keep Blue Star Mothers from becoming Gold Star Mothers.

Right. The generals were primarily concerned about their troops. Not civilians. If civilians are abused as human shields, the decision to open fire with artillery in an attempt avoid casualties of one's own soldiers, one is still the cause of these civilian casualties despite their Japanese abuse as human shields.

If buildings had been cleared room by room and the Japanse had killed their hostages, then the responsibilities for these particular civilian casualties would rest with the Japanese.

So if the end result had been the same, still there is a difference in responsibility.

Compromise......the Japanese killed a lot of civilians, US artillery killed a lot of civilians. The triviality of what percentage was done by each of each is not worth arguing over.

Amen to that.

von Marwitz

 

[wrongway149]

Turn 2 mild breeze came up and really spread the smoke screen. Japanese cannot see a thing yet.

Any thoughts about the boat rules here? Did you feel the need/want to modify anything?

 

[ASLSARGE]

Any thoughts about the boat rules here? Did you feel the need/want to modify anything?

The smokescreen was placed several hexes inland from the river bank, so it had no impact on the US crossing the river. See photo in a previous post.

 

[ASLSARGE]

Here is an aerial photo of part of Intramuros after the battle of Manila. The San Augustine Church can be seen in the upper right corner. My question....does this look anything like the US artillery only targeted specific Japanese positions to limit civilian losses, or does it more closely resemble an intensive artillery carpeting of the entire area to level every single building. I will let you decide. The photo evidence speaks for itself.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Here is an aerial photo of part of Intramuros after the battle of Manila. The San Augustine Church can be seen in the upper right corner. My question....does this look anything like the US artillery only targeted specific Japanese positions to limit civilian losses, or does it more closely resemble an intensive artillery carpeting of the entire area to level every single building. I will let you decide. The photo evidence speaks for itself.

Thank heavens we limited collateral damage by point attacks. I'd hate to imagine the damage if we had used wide spread arty fire.

 

[Gordon]

Thank heavens we limited collateral damage by point attacks. I'd hate to imagine the damage if we had used wide spread arty fire.

Sorta like daylight strategic bombing.

 

[wrongway149]

Here is an aerial photo of part of Intramuros after the battle of Manila. The San Augustine Church can be seen in the upper right corner. My question....does this look anything like the US artillery only targeted specific Japanese positions to limit civilian losses, or does it more closely resemble an intensive artillery carpeting of the entire area to level every single building. I will let you decide. The photo evidence speaks for itself.

So I see a possible SSR/ victory condition (and maybe you already thought of it...): US loses points if he calls on high- caliber OBA. Combined with a US CVP cap, it could reflect the situation but still be playable on the tactical level.

 

[ASLSARGE]

So I see a possible SSR/ victory condition (and maybe you already thought of it...): US loses points if he calls on high- caliber OBA. Combined with a US CVP cap, it could reflect the situation but still be playable on the tactical level.

Years ago I thought about doing something along those lines but discarded it. Already have one scenario in the pack which takes place at night. Japanese are holding several "prisoner" counters representing civilians in the University/Hospital complex. Part of the US Victory Conditions is they gain VP for each "prisoner" counter rescued. Japanese are restricted from any massacre attempts or moving until turn 7 or 8 of the game (can't remember which offhand) and can only massacre one "prisoner" per game turn after that, so US actually has a good chance to gain some VP that way along with CVP.

 

[von Marwitz]

So I see a possible SSR/ victory condition (and maybe you already thought of it...): US loses points if he calls on high- caliber OBA. Combined with a US CVP cap, it could reflect the situation but still be playable on the tactical level.

The question is if limiting high caliber OBA was historically the objective then and there. I doubt this. Much more likely it was limiting losses of one's own combat troops.

Against that background an SSR limiting high caliber OBA would not make sense. It would seem to me that such an SSR would reflect what today we might find that ought to have mattered back then but apparently did not so much.

von Marwitz

 

[Eagle4ty]

Sorta like daylight strategic bombing.

Put a bomb in a pickle barrel with the Nordon (SP?) bomb site.

 

[Gordon]

Put a bomb in a pickle barrel with the Nordon (SP?) bomb site.

As long as the pickle barrel was the diameter of, say, Berlin.

 

[Brad M-V]

Looks like fire damage, the building fronts and roads are non-rubble and the interior walls and support beams are mostly all still standing. The roofs were burnt off because very little clutter remains within each building.

 

[ASLSARGE]

Looks like fire damage, the building fronts and roads are non-rubble and the interior walls and support beams are mostly all still standing. The roofs were burnt off because very little clutter remains within each building.

The roads are cleared because this photo was taken several days after the battle ended, and the Americans had sent in several bulldozers to clear the roads so they could get search teams in to look for survivors. See attached photo. You can see some of the rubble in the streets the dozer is trying to clear away. Yes, a good deal of fire damage.....mainly caused by artillery bombardments.However if you look very closely you can see that inside many of the roofless buildings there is still furniture and other items, that if fire were the cause for destruction would not still be there. Since you can still see those items, the building was destroyed by artillery....not fire.