The Battle of Manila 1945

[ASLSARGE]

So what do the large white squares denote?

Large white center dot = building has a ground floor and one upper level. Large white square = building has a ground floor, a first level and a second level. Large white triangle = building has a ground floor, a first level, a second level, and a third level........and before you ask.....if the center dot is enclosed by a white ring it is a warehouse.

 

[Honza]

Large white center dot = building has a ground floor and one upper level. Large white square = building has a ground floor, a first level and a second level. Large white triangle = building has a ground floor, a first level, a second level, and a third level........and before you ask.....if the center dot is enclosed by a white ring it is a warehouse.

Thanks!....

 

[PabloGS]

Nice to see it is moving along!

I dimly recall a discussion about a very tall building. A hotel maybe, that had even more levels?

 

[Honza]

I dimly recall a discussion about a very tall building. A hotel maybe, that had even more levels?

The very tall building rules were cancelled for playability.

 

[Gordon]

#cancelculture strikes again.

 

[von Marwitz]

The very tall building rules were cancelled for playability.

I think this was a very reasonable decision.

Maybe as an alternative, one might add a rule that allows for somewhat increased stacking in a Location without overstacking penalty.

von Marwitz

 

[ASLSARGE]

I think this was a very reasonable decision.

Maybe as an alternative, one might add a rule that allows for somewhat increased stacking in a Location without overstacking penalty.

von Marwitz

That would be very bad. When we had the original extra-tall building rules in place, we had one game in particular back around 2004 where (IIRC) a two hex stone building with six levels (and cellars and rooftops in play) had at least one squad on every level....Japanese and US almost alternating levels. Many had SW's, SMC's, concealment counters, DM and Pin counters. Both hexes had like twelve to fifteen counters in them......back then we used enlarged building printouts to actually place the counters on once things got hairy with stacking, and we just checked LOS on the actual map. Dropping those rules virtually eliminated monster sized stacks, as did cutting back on the number of RG's available in the CG's. Since then I think the tallest stack I have had has been maybe six or seven counters (both sides) in a hex....usually it is just three or four total. Much more manageable......and far less chance of "bumping the table" recon......

 

[von Marwitz]

That would be very bad. When we had the original extra-tall building rules in place, we had one game in particular back around 2004 where (IIRC) a two hex stone building with six levels (and cellars and rooftops in play) had at least one squad on every level....Japanese and US almost alternating levels. Many had SW's, SMC's, concealment counters, DM and Pin counters. Both hexes had like twelve to fifteen counters in them......back then we used enlarged building printouts to actually place the counters on once things got hairy with stacking, and we just checked LOS on the actual map. Dropping those rules virtually eliminated monster sized stacks, as did cutting back on the number of RG's available in the CG's. Since then I think the tallest stack I have had has been maybe six or seven counters (both sides) in a hex....usually it is just three or four total. Much more manageable......and far less chance of "bumping the table" recon......

What you describe was what came to my mind when I first heard about six level buildings back then. It would be a PITA to handle counters in practice. Many of those counters would be functional ones, i.e. Level counters, multiple PIN/DM/Fire Counters/Fixed CA etc. for various levels.

By 'abstracting' 6 levels to the normal 2+ground, all this 'functional counter overhead' would be eliminated outright. If you increase the normal stacking limit to 4 squad equivalents without penalty per level in these 'large' 2+ground buildings, this would not significantly increase the potential height of the stacks per location. Yet it could represent the larger capacity of the building which is - in reality - 6 levels high. That said, as you point out, the chances of using this increased stacking capacity to its full potential is slim. Yet it would give you more tactical options for particular locations.

Thus I find the idea still not an unreasonable approach.

von Marwitz

 

[Gordon]

Sounds like a potentially good "house rule" to experiment with.

 

[Honza]

.....as did cutting back on the number of RG's available in the CG's.

You mustn't do that. The mantra is double the OOB not halve it.

 

[ASLSARGE]

The river assault across the Pasig is set to begin. US has a smoke screen to start and Japanese cannot move until one of their MMC has a LOS to a known US unit. US has to control more buildings than the Japanese at game end with 11.5 turns. First two will be spent on the water in boats, rafts, and LVT's. Promises to be bloody as usual.

 

[ASLSARGE]

Turn 2 mild breeze came up and really spread the smoke screen. Japanese cannot see a thing yet.

 

[PabloGS]

Thanks for the previews. Could you mention any details about the TEM and terrain specifics of those magnificent walls? The center dots of a few wall hexes are marked with a dotted area. Also, there seems to be a large cathedral?

Looking forward.

 

[ASLSARGE]

Thanks for the" like" Pablo. The adobe walls were 30-40 feet thick and about around 25 feet tall. We decided upon +6TEM and Level 1 obstacle. Those wall hexes with some dashes around the center dots are stairwells that go from the ground level to the top of the wall. There is a parapet along the outer edge of the top of the wall too. The large wall sections that jut out are the gun batteries, or bastions. Atop those sections of the walls is where the Spanish set up their cannons for defense of the city from the 1600's - late 1800's. The large cathedral is the Manila Cathedral. There are several more cathedrals/churches within Intramuros. All but one, San Augustine, were destroyed in the fighting. Not the first time many of those were rebuilt....over the span of 300+ years many were leveled by earthquakes and fire. Hope to finish up this scenario tonite, and if so will post final situation photo. Right now we are starting turn 9 of 11 1/2 and the US has about 35-40% of the buildings/rubble under their control. I expect a slugfest for the remainder I need plus an all out counterattack by my opponent to try to take some back before end of game. He did an unusual strategy....only placed one 336 squad and one HIP crew with HMG and a 10-2 within Fort Santiago. By virtually conceding those buildings he was able to better defend within the ancient city proper. It has slowed my advance a lot. We will see at game end if his tactic worked.

 

[ASLSARGE]

Here is the photo of the end game for "Assault Across the Pasig". Small green concealment counters are building/rubble hexes US controlled at game end. Final tally US 52, Japanese 43. His counterattack took back six building hexes but was stopped after that by intense small arms fire. Both agreed too many Japanese assets placed rearward at start. Four squads and two crews with MMG's never even got into the fight. That is a lot of men and weapons not used. Japanese OBA effective...took out two LVT's and a squad. My 150mm kia'd a gun crew then nothing. My 80mm OBA did better breaking a gun crew and a squad and cleared a path to take three buildings. Fires spread mainly due to high winds popping up mid game. The toughest nut to crack for my GI's was the Letran University. Only got two of the four buildings and took a lot of losses for those. Letran is located near the two rubble gates along the east Wall. As always a fun and challenging scenario.

 

[PabloGS]

Thanks for the" like" Pablo. The adobe walls were 30-40 feet thick and about around 25 feet tall. We decided upon +6TEM and Level 1 obstacle.

Well I've been silently looking for this since the mid 2000's! Pretty happy to see it coming to fruition. I love the sloped adobe wall depiction, with proper positioning of the shadow on one side. +6 TEM makes sense as, being adobe, it is just like the earthen hill on the back of a cave.

 

[ASLSARGE]

Got in a game this weekend..."Race to the River". Winner needs more VP at game end. US gets VP for CVP and units south of estero. Japanese get VP for CVP plus any bridge hex they destroy by Set DC. Random opportunities to do so. Final VP tally? US 49 Japanese 48. Decided by two CC's in final game turn. Cannot get much closer than that! Always a nail biter for this one.

 

[PabloGS]

Finished Ian Toll's third volume on the Pacific War. He has an extended section on the battle for Manila. It was a gruesome affair and the Japanese behaved in an even more savage way than elsewhere with the remaining civilian population. MacArthur also seemed to have banned air (but not artillery) bombardment. Will the module have SSRs to reflects these type of particularities?

 

[ASLSARGE]

Finished Ian Toll's third volume on the Pacific War. He has an extended section on the battle for Manila. It was a gruesome affair and the Japanese behaved in an even more savage way than elsewhere with the remaining civilian population. MacArthur also seemed to have banned air (but not artillery) bombardment. Will the module have SSRs to reflects these type of particularities?

Yes. Lots of OBA available, plus the US has some reinforcement groups available in the CG's for 155mm guns to be set up on board. No air support is available. MacArthur forbade any air support as he felt it was not accurate enough to limit civilian losses. So his subordinates simply employed massive amounts of artillery to level any strongholds. It is estimated that about 70% of the civilian casualties were from US artillery. So much for limiting non-combatant casualties.
The Japanese knew they were to fight and die in place. No escape possible or allowed. They took their hatred out on the civilian population. The atrocities rivaled what they did in Shanghai, if not even worse.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Yes. Lots of OBA available, plus the US has some reinforcement groups available in the CG's for 155mm guns to be set up on board. No air support is available. MacArthur forbade any air support as he felt it was not accurate enough to limit civilian losses. So his subordinates simply employed massive amounts of artillery to level any strongholds. It is estimated that about 70% of the civilian casualties were from US artillery. So much for limiting non-combatant casualties.
The Japanese knew they were to fight and die in place. No escape possible or allowed. They took their hatred out on the civilian population. The atrocities rivaled what they did in Shanghai, if not even worse.

Yes, Gen Yamashita would pay the ultimate price after the war for the civilian casualties suffered here even tough he had initially ordered the evacuation of Manila but was countermanded by Rear Adm. Sanji and Gen Yokoyama. However, Yamashita was not without fault as his treatment of civilians in China, Malaya and Singapore did little to uphold his defense either.