The 8-3-8 Pionier Squad

[daniel zucker]

At last. Someone who gets it besides Pete. Design for effect, as with the rest of the ASL game. I would ask Scott's question differently: has the drive for "historical accuracy" driven all the fun from the game? -- jim

I think the answer is YES!!!! that's why I like SASL so much. I think that it has the feel of what comanding an infentry unit in WWII in combat was like. All this demand for "HISTORICAL ACCURACY" TM has taken the fun out of the game I think that most of us ASL players play ASL becouse we fantize about commanding WWII combat units and we want to repete or remake history (read that as the Germans win).
Being able to do better then the real Generals did is what attracted me to WWII gameing as a kid.

Daniel

 

[serpico]

yea yea, so I made a minor mistake

SK player here and still learning

Don't worry about it Robert.........it's all good,especially those 8-3-8s...!

I think there were a few Pioneer Battalions at Stalingrad....the 45th, 162 Pioneer Battaillons....

The 50th Panzer Pioneer Battaillon....formed specifically for Stalingrad

Stug Abtielung 244, 245 with the new StuIG IIIB assault guns.

Just my small 2 cents thrown in......:bite:

 

[Kevin Kenneally]

Finnish 8-3-8s

Now the Finns ue this counter as a part of the "Sissi" units.

They are really formidable when the are Stealthy and HIP awaiting the onslaught from the "Brown Hordes"....

 

[serpico]

Now the Finns ue this counter as a part of the "Sissi" units.

They are really formidable when the are Stealthy and HIP awaiting the onslaught from the "Brown Hordes"....

Too formidable especially with German SWs.......

They had some funky AFVs too........

Maybe the new Finns will have some Pulkas......and Klorihartsi pipe grenades?

:smoke:

 

[Kevin Kenneally]

Too formidable especially with German SWs.......

They had some funky AFVs too........

Maybe the new Finns will have some Pulkas......and Klorihartsi pipe grenades?

:smoke:

With an abundance of "Molotov" cocktails.....

Ahkio's should also be made into a counter with 12PPs.

They could carry SW's on these little sleds and still sky long distances in a short period of time.

 

[JoeCleere]

During the Battle of the Bulge, the Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade's assault pioneer squads were armed entirely with Stg 44s, so it would probably be appropriate for them to be represented by 8-3-8s. In addition, German Panzer Grenadier companies were organized, on paper anyway, to have a Sturm platoon and two rifle platoons. The Sturm platoon consisted of three squads armed entirely with Stg 44s

 

[Roadtogundagai]

During the Battle of the Bulge, the Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade's assault pioneer squads were armed entirely with Stg 44s, so it would probably be appropriate for them to be represented by 8-3-8s. In addition, German Panzer Grenadier companies were organized, on paper anyway, to have a Sturm platoon and two rifle platoons. The Sturm platoon consisted of three squads armed entirely with Stg 44s

With STG 44s I would suggest something more like 8-4-8. Throw in an inherant MG42 and I would guess at 8-5-8/8-6-8 (assuming the LMG firepower is already factored in). Scary dudes. :surprise:

 

[sarfs]

Hmm

a 6-5-8 squad with 2 LMGs would be 12 fp ! 15 if they had 3 LMGs now thats PBFirepower

They might have 12 fp but can only use 9fp max.

jim

 

[JRKrejsa]

With STG 44s I would suggest something more like 8-4-8. Throw in an inherant MG42 and I would guess at 8-5-8/8-6-8 (assuming the LMG firepower is already factored in). Scary dudes. :surprise:

Agreed- Three hexes seems short for an assault rifle. And since the StG44 was capable of full auto or semi auto fire, aimed shots, and a lot of them would be fairly easy at much longer than 120 meters. 8-4-8, 8-5-8?

Assuming they were well trained, had plenty of ammo.....

 

[JoeCleere]

8-3-8 is the only counter in the mix that comes close to representing an Stg 44 armed squad. But yes, an 8-4-8 or 8-5-8 would be more appropriate.

 

[Blackcloud6]

Agreed- Three hexes seems short for an assault rifle. And since the StG44 was capable of full auto or semi auto fire, aimed shots, and a lot of them would be fairly easy at much longer than 120 meters. 8-4-8, 8-5-8?

No, not necessarily. I would think the 3 range is better as the STG44 used the 8mm kurz. It probably had range issues beyond 150 for effective fire much like the AKs 7.62x39 round.

One of the reason for going to the smaller case was that the germans were beginning to realize that infantry close combat ranges were dropping fo combat in European terrain.

 

[Ronnblom]

Effective range for an AKM is about 300 meters. And I know I hit things at that range, and I can't recall it being significantly harder than with standard issue Ak 5 (5.56mm, 930 m/s). I mean, the problem is more sights than ballistics. Don't you think?

 

[Blackcloud6]

Effective range for an AKM is about 300 meters. And I know I hit things at that range, and I can't recall it being significantly harder than with standard issue Ak 5 (5.56mm, 930 m/s). I mean, the problem is more sights than ballistics. Don't you think?

The problem is the sights and the ballistics. I can hit targets at 500 meters with an AKM but that is on a range without the target pissed off, dodging and shooting back. It is also semi-automatic aimed fire, not full auto bursts where the gun rises rapidly.

We are not looking at the effective fire of one guy in ideal conditions on semi-auto fire, but the effective fire of the squad in combat fire at automatic fire. The 8-3-8 reflects a very effective fire at close range were the squad if firing in auto fire 16 PB, 8 at 2 and 3 hexes), then 4 out to six hexes which is the same as the K98 equipped 1st line squads out to six hexes. So then the 8-3-8 accurately reflects the auto fire capabilities of squads equipped with the STG 44 (and other similar weapons)

 

[Ronnblom]

Sure, under pressure you tend to more easily fail to properly compensating for range. But the K98k having double the ASL range of the StG 44? I mean, barring any significantly better sights on the K98k, the difference is 685 m/s vs 760 m/s.

 

[Roadtogundagai]

The problem is the sights and the ballistics. I can hit targets at 500 meters with an AKM but that is on a range without the target pissed off, dodging and shooting back. It is also semi-automatic aimed fire, not full auto bursts where the gun rises rapidly.

We are not looking at the effective fire of one guy in ideal conditions on semi-auto fire, but the effective fire of the squad in combat fire at automatic fire. The 8-3-8 reflects a very effective fire at close range were the squad if firing in auto fire 16 PB, 8 at 2 and 3 hexes), then 4 out to six hexes which is the same as the K98 equipped 1st line squads out to six hexes. So then the 8-3-8 accurately reflects the auto fire capabilities of squads equipped with the STG 44 (and other similar weapons)

I could be wrong here, but I thought the point of assault rifles (STG44 being the first), is that they have selective fire - full auto at close range (similar in effect to an SMG) and semi auto beyond (similar in effect to a full powered semi auto rifle such as the Garand - at least out to 300m).

Remember that these are rifle rounds at reduced velocity, but still having ballistics far improved on pistol rounds from an SMG. A compromise - not as easy to control as an SMG firing pistol rounds on full auto, and not quite the punch of a full powered rifle round in semi auto mode (but close enough at most battlefield ranges). :hmmm:

 

[jwb3]

Re: The 8-3-6 VG SMG Squad?

One of the reason for going to the smaller case was that the germans were beginning to realize that infantry close combat ranges were dropping fo combat in European terrain.

This might be the answer to a question I've been wondering about lately, due to playing a large amount of Combat Mission. The TO&E for a late-war VolksGrenadier company is the following:

- one platoon of 3 8-man squads "VolksGrenadier" squads, armed with 4 rifles, 1 MP44, 2 SMGs, and 1 LMG

- two platoons each containing:
-- two 8-man "SMG" squads, armed with 8 SMGs
-- one 8-man "Heavy SMG" squad, armed with 6 SMGs and 2 LMGs

As I play with these guys, I find myself wondering "What the heck were they thinking?" Obviously the SMG squads are deadly when used in a tight urban setting or woods, but for anything beyond that they're largely dead weight. That's almost half the force!

I've been intending to post a topic here asking about the subject, but since it came up here first, what do people think? What was the reasoning?


John

 

[Dave Olie]

Sure, under pressure you tend to more easily fail to properly compensating for range. But the K98k having double the ASL range of the StG 44? I mean, barring any significantly better sights on the K98k, the difference is 685 m/s vs 760 m/s.

Any full-auto weapon is going to be harder to keep on-target. Yes, the StG 44 had a semi-auto capability, but I'd imagine that it was rarely used in combat. Most guys are going to try to put as many rounds downrange as possible as quickly as possible. It's human nature.

Any bolt-action/semi-auto rifle is going to encourage aimed shots. This is one reason the British and Commonwealth armies stayed away from infantry automatic weapons for so many years. Even when I was in the Canadian Army in the late '70s my rifle was the FN-C1, semi-auto only. A damn good rifle, but you couldn't simply hose down the target; you had to take aim.

I think this fact is reflected well in the ASL range factors.

 

[Blackcloud6]

But the K98k having double the ASL range of the StG 44?

Read my post again, I think I explain this.

And by the counter, the K98 equipped squads can fire a 2fp out to 8 hexes and the STG squads fire at 4 out to 6. I think this is good way to show the differentce in firepower of the weapons and what they are deisigned to do.

I don't think the 8 fp should go beyond 3 hex range as that is reflecting auto fire, not the aimed shots of semi auto/bolt action.

BTW, the K98 is a very accurrate rifle.

 

[Roadtogundagai]

Re: The 8-3-6 VG SMG Squad?

I've been intending to post a topic here asking about the subject, but since it came up here first, what do people think? What was the reasoning?
John

In a single word, FIREPOWER. The Germans were looking at ways of providing the prodigous close range firepower of an SMG while retaining the ability to reach out and touch people at reasonable battlefield distances (300m). Rather than equip a squad with a blend of rifles and SMGs, it would be better to provide a new weapon that could do both jobs.

Traditional SMGs use pistol rounds - far too underpowered and ballistically inefficient for effective use beyond around 100m. Full powered rifle rounds are much too powerful to be controllable in full auto mode in a standard weight weapon. The answer - a reduced power rifle round. This reduces the recoil so that full auto is somewhat controllable, and retains the ballistics required to reach out to 300m accurately.

The Wikipedia article has a lot of info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STG_44

 

[Blackcloud6]

What was the reasoning?

During WWII and since then, the engagement range of infantry combat has been decreasing (the one area going against this trend is some of the combat in Afghanistan) due to increase urbanization and increased communication between squad members. There just is not a need for an extremely powerful cartridge like the M2 .30 Cal, the 8mm, the 7.62x54R, the 7.62x51 etc. except for General Purpose MGs. Those rounds are heavy thus armies moved to smaller ammunition like the 5.56 and 5.54 mm rounds. The infantryman can carry more ammo.