The 8-3-8 Pionier Squad

[Gunner Scott]

Hi-

A few questions on this slowly fading away unit in the German OoB. If ASL came out today, would this unit still be apart of the German OoB? Are we see'ing less and less of this unit in the current crop of scenarios? Lastly, should this unit basically be relagated to just Stalingrad scenarios?

thanks


Scott

 

[soggycrow]

Hi-

A few questions on this slowly fading away unit in the German OoB. If ASL came out today, would this unit still be apart of the German OoB? Are we see'ing less and less of this unit in the current crop of scenarios? Lastly, should this unit basically be relagated to just Stalingrad scenarios?

thanks


Scott

Jason Mark's "Island of Fire" has a short unit history for each Pioneer Battalion that fought at the Barriday Gun Factory. Each unit had significant battle experience prior to Stalingrad. I think that most had fought in France in 1940. They may not be well represented in scenarios, but they were all in extensive combat well before Stalingrad.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Jason Mark's "Island of Fire" has a short unit history for each Pioneer Battalion that fought at the Barriday Gun Factory. Each unit had significant battle experience prior to Stalingrad. I think that most had fought in France in 1940. They may not be well represented in scenarios, but they were all in extensive combat well before Stalingrad.

Hi ya 3rd class;

So I guess I and any other scenario designer out ther can be justified in using such a unit in '39 and / or 40.


Scott

 

[M.Koch]

The 8-3-8 Pionier Squad ...is totally overrated. For RB they´ve done better to use the 838 as the assault squads and the 548 as the assault pioneers.
Beside RB i think there is no much use for the 838.

MK

 

[jpellam]

Sadly I must agree and say that the 8-3-8's :salute: should only be used for early war city fighting and Stalingrad in particular.

I remember my days using a stack of these with a 10-3 leader in the Squad Leader scenario's. What fun.

 

[Corporal Kindel]

I kinda always felt the 838 Engineer squad was too strong. They should've reduced it to a 738 at about the same time the old 847 US para squad was reduced to a 747. Why they reduced one but not the other is beyond me.

 

[Pitman]

Hi-

A few questions on this slowly fading away unit in the German OoB. If ASL came out today, would this unit still be apart of the German OoB? Are we see'ing less and less of this unit in the current crop of scenarios? Lastly, should this unit basically be relagated to just Stalingrad scenarios?

thanks


Scott

I was just thinking about this earlier this week while sorting some counters. I think it is pretty clear that if ASL came out today, that squad would look different, probably more like a 6-4-8. There seems to be an unspoken consensus among scenario designers that the 8-3-8 is more powerful than it should be. As a result, it rarely shows up anymore (although it does still pop up every once in a while, as in Friendly Fire Pack 1).

As for what should be done with it, that's pretty much up to the designers. If they like it and find it useful, they'll include it. If not, we'll continue to see more 5-4-8s.

 

[Ronnblom]

The 8-3-8 Pionier Squad ...is totally overrated. For RB they´ve done better to use the 838 as the assault squads and the 548 as the assault pioneers.
Beside RB i think there is no much use for the 838.

What is an "assault squad"? Some ad hoc thingy or something I can find in a KStN?

I think the 8-3-8 is a reasonably good match for the 2xLMG 14/15-man strong combat engineer squad. You could argue it should have better range and in some cases lower morale, and maybe lower FP (6? 7?). Something tells me that 15 men make a clumsy infantry squad, but head count works in their favor too. In terms of spirit/doctrine/training the should be about the same as the better part of the regular infantry.

 

[Ronnblom]

As a result, it rarely shows up anymore (although it does still pop up every once in a while, as in Friendly Fire Pack 1).

As for what should be done with it, that's pretty much up to the designers. If they like it and find it useful, they'll include it. If not, we'll continue to see more 5-4-8s.

The SS-Nord combat engineers were (ToE-wise) of the 14/15-man strong type and at full strength at the time of attach on Wingen-sur-Moder. And besides, SS 8-3-8s are more unusual and more fun than the bread and butter 6-5-8s.

 

[dude163]

Hmm

a 6-5-8 squad with 2 LMGs would be 12 fp ! 15 if they had 3 LMGs now thats PBFirepower

 

[Ronnblom]

If you would give a 2-3-6 HS all LMGs in the German OB, it could wipe out an entire army group in one prep fire phase.

 

[M.Koch]

What is an "assault squad"? Some ad hoc thingy or something I can find in a KStN?

I think the 8-3-8 is a reasonably good match for the 2xLMG 14/15-man strong combat engineer squad. You could argue it should have better range and in some cases lower morale, and maybe lower FP (6? 7?). Something tells me that 15 men make a clumsy infantry squad, but head count works in their favor too. In terms of spirit/doctrine/training the should be about the same as the better part of the regular infantry.

The Sturm (assault) Companys in Red Barricades are represented as 548, the Sturm pioneers as 838.
I think 838 squads are generally armed with submachine-guns and handgrenades, giving them that low range/high firepower. IIRC the special "assault" engineers formations were used exclusively in Stalingrad,formed by three pioneer battailons

 

[Jazz]

Hi-

A few questions on this slowly fading away unit in the German OoB. If ASL came out today, would this unit still be apart of the German OoB? Are we see'ing less and less of this unit in the current crop of scenarios? Lastly, should this unit basically be relagated to just Stalingrad scenarios?

thanks


Scott

Check out Dispatches from the Bunker scenario "Housing Crash" (DB061). Kharkov, March '43....The Backhand Blow

(all SS) 10x 8-3-8, 9-2, 6x DC and 3x FT.....plus a supporting cast of various sundry leaders ans 3x LMG.

Deluxe boards.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Check out Dispatches from the Bunker scenario "Housing Crash" (DB061). Kharkov, March '43....The Backhand Blow

(all SS) 10x 8-3-8, 9-2, 6x DC and 3x FT.....plus a supporting cast of various sundry leaders ans 3x LMG.

Deluxe boards.

Hi-

Thanks for the info Jazz, I'm thinking about designing a Kharkov 43 scenario using the Red Barricades map for my SS pack, and of course maybe using the 838 SS Pionier squad for the leibstandarte adolf hitler Panzer Division when they went into Kharkov. What would also be cool is using the VotG 628's in this possible design also.

Scott

 

[Ronnblom]

The Sturm (assault) Companys in Red Barricades are represented as 548, the Sturm pioneers as 838.
I think 838 squads are generally armed with submachine-guns and handgrenades, giving them that low range/high firepower. IIRC the special "assault" engineers formations were used exclusively in Stalingrad,formed by three pioneer battailons

OK. So how were they organized and what kind of equipment did they have?

Btw, German assault engineers are all over the place. Pretty much every single division has at least a battalion worth of assault engineers. That probably make the 8-3-8 the most underrepresented squad type in ASL.

 

[daniel zucker]

Is not the true strength of the 8-3-8 the ML of 8? and not what MG's they might have or not have? I allways thought that the 8-3-8 were to be given the FT & DC becouse that was the work that an 8-3-8 should be doing

Daniel

 

[Sarjent Mike]

Sadly I must agree and say that the 8-3-8's :salute: should only be used for early war city fighting and Stalingrad in particular.

I remember my days using a stack of these with a 10-3 leader in the Squad Leader scenario's. What fun.

Getting a semi just thinking about it. I blew up board 1 to Deluxe size just for this purpose.

 

[Legion]

I was just thinking about this earlier this week while sorting some counters.

It is time for your monthly ASL Bath Pitman?
:clown:

 

[Glennbo]

The 8-3-8 is just fine for whenever it's required. I think it can be valid in 1939. It's another tool in the designer's kit to recreate a specific situation.

 

[Vinnie]

Hmm

a 6-5-8 squad with 2 LMGs would be 12 fp ! 15 if they had 3 LMGs now thats PBFirepower

a 6-5-8 with 1 LMG would be 9 fp with 2 it would be 9 or 6 with a rof of 1.