TH, ITT, ATT

labelcd6

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Basic situation (G1 is a wooden building, btw):

11937

  1. The AFV can fire smoke into G1 and just needs an 8 TH?
  2. The AFV cannot fire ITT since only unit in G1 is concealed?
  3. The AFV can fire ATT and needs a 5 TH? 7 is base TH +2 for Case K.
Next situation:

11938


  1. The AFV can fire smoke into G1 and just needs an 8 TH?
  2. The AFV can fire ITT since there are both concealed and non-concealed units?
  • TH will be done in one DR: 6 for unconcealed and 4 for concealed? (8 base +2 for building +2 for concealed unit only)
  • 4 or below will hit both units with 12FP? 5 would hit unconcealed but not concealed?
3. What happens when AFV fires ATT in this situation? TH? Effect?
 

Schrapnellls

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Basic situation (G1 is a wooden building, btw):

View attachment 11937

  1. The AFV can fire smoke into G1 and just needs an 8 TH?
  2. The AFV cannot fire ITT since only unit in G1 is concealed?
  3. The AFV can fire ATT and needs a 5 TH? 7 is base TH +2 for Case K.
1/ Smoke is fired with ATT: Basic TH7, Modified TH9 (+2 Smoke)... but Ammo Depletion s8
DRM +1 BU, +2 Concealed Target, you need A DR7

2/You could fire ITT, but couldn't Acquire the target : C6.5, You could acquire only a Known Unit

3/Almost, if you are BU, you suffer an additional +1DRM, you need then a DR4

You have already be penalized by the concealed target status with TH DR, so you couldn't be penalized twice. It would be a 6FP+2DRM IFT attack
 

Schrapnellls

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Next situation:

View attachment 11938


  1. The AFV can fire smoke into G1 and just needs an 8 TH?
  2. The AFV can fire ITT since there are both concealed and non-concealed units?
1/ You need to Hit the easier target in the hex, with an unconcealed unit in, you just suffer the +1 BU DRM to lay down SMOKE.
So you need a DR8
2/ Yes, he could, but don't use same DRMs... and could hit the unconcealed and miss the concealed unit. In this case, he could place an 1/2" Acq counter koz a Known Enemy unit is present in the hex... but couldn't use it against the concealed unit (C6.57, only ATT Acquisition is allowed against a concealed unit)

  • TH will be done in one DR: 6 for unconcealed and 4 for concealed? (8 base +2 for building +2 for concealed unit only)
  • 4 or below will hit both units with 12FP? 5 would hit unconcealed but not concealed?
3. What happens when AFV fires ATT in this situation? TH? Effect?
1st point: You have a +1DRM if the tank is BU (so respectively DR5 and 3 needed), other than that, you're right
2nd point: You're right, except it would be DR3 for hit both (with BU penalty)

3/
ATT Basic TH: 7 , Modified TH same
DRM: vs both units: +1 BU
vs concealed: add +2 Case K
So Hit both unit on DR4 or less, unconcealed only on DR6 (see C6.54 about multiple targets)

Resolution: 12FP against one or both depending on who was hit
 

jrv

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1/ Smoke is fired with ATT: Basic TH7, Modified TH9 (+2 Smoke)... but Ammo Depletion s8
DRM +1 BU, +2 Concealed Target, you need A DR7
With a basic TH number of 7, modified to 9 for ammo type (+2 Smoke) and TH DRM of +3 (+1 BU, +2 Concealed), a TH DR of 7 will miss (original TH DR = 7 + 3 TH DRM = final TH DR = 10, which is > the modified TH number of 9). A TH DR of 6 or less will hit with Smoke; the TH attempt will be considered an attack (i.e. the unit is marked with a Prep Fire counter).

Going through the rest of the possible results: a TH DR of 7 will miss with Smoke; it will be considered an attack (i.e. the unit is marked with a Prep Fire counter). A TH DR of 8 will miss with Smoke; it will be considered an attack, and the Pz IV will be out of Smoke ammunition for the game. A TH DR of 9-11 will mean that the Pz IV is out of Smoke, but it will not be considered an attack. A TH DR of 17 12 will be considered an attack; the Pz IV will be out of Smoke ammunition, and the MA will malfunction.

JR
 
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Pyth

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The second example, ATT -- ATT vs concealed and unconcealed...

One TH roll. Basic TH7 +1BU, [+2 Case K concealed unit]... TH 6 hits unconcealed only. TH 4 hits both,
The IFT effect roll is FP 6 (1/2'd for being ATT) with + 2 DRM on the IFT roll for wooden building.
(Note... TH Roll 2 is CH FP 24(!)-2(!!) for Random Selection for unit(s). If only one RS, other unit is affected normally.
5/8" ACQ placed. ROF NA.
 
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Schrapnellls

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With a basic TH number of 7, modified to 9 for ammo type (+2 Smoke) and TH DRM of +3 (+1 BU, +2 Concealed), a TH DR of 7 will miss (original TH DR = 7 + 3 TH DRM = final TH DR = 10, which is > the modified TH number of 9). A TH DR of 6 or less will hit with Smoke; the TH attempt will be considered an attack (i.e. the unit is marked with a Prep Fire counter).


JR
Ooops, sorry!

I haven't drink yet today, so I lose the track!
 

jrv

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The second example, ATT -- ATT vs concealed and unconcealed...

One TH roll. Basic TH number 7 +1BU, [+2 Case K concealed unit]... TH DR of 6 hits unconcealed only. TH DR of 4 hits both,
The IFT effect roll is FP 6 (1/2'd for being ATT) with + 2 DRM on the IFT roll for wooden building.
(Note... a TH Die Roll 2 is CH FP 24(!)-2(!!) for Random Selection for unit(s). If only one RS, other unit is affected normally.
5/8" ACQ placed. ROF NA.
This is correct, but I have spelled out the proper names of the different elements a bit more. The To Hit Process is an area in the ASL rules where there are a number of somewhat similarly-named elements (they all have "To Hit", either as "To Hit Number" or "To Hit Die Roll"), and that can lead to confusion. The somewhat similarly-named elements are:
  • Basic To Hit Number
  • Gun and Ammo Type Basic To Hit Number Modifications
  • Modified To Hit Number
  • Original To Hit Die Roll
  • To Hit Die Roll Modifiers
  • Final To Hit Die Roll
I like to spell out the element names a bit more to draw attention to the different pieces of the "puzzle."

JR
 

Pyth

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Thanks JR for the editorial claritifications and please don't go away... *there's still more to the ATT resolution ... and I'm not quite sure I've got this part right in all detail, so I need some back up here:

+70mm HE attack means possible rubble/flame creation in burnable terrain, which a wooden building is... 6FP+2 creates possible flame/rubble on Original (disregard the +2 DRM for flame/rubble) IFT 2... if there's a CH it <still> needs an Original 2 on the IFT roll for flame/rubble, because the flame rubble part of ATT resolution uses the normal 6 FP (the CH FP doesn't apply vs. the terrain.)

There's more than one case (crit hit, non crit hit... RS). Let's say it was a crit hit and the RS chose one unit...

If the TH was a CH 2, and the IFT effect roll was an 2, then the RS unit gets the CH 24-2 of 5 KIA. (ow) and the other units gets 6+2 result of 2MC. Because this IFT effect roll was for +70mm HE -- a original 2 roll 6FP is 1KIA. So we must check for flame/rubble. We roll a dr (1 die) for rubble (wooden building -- no modifier to this roll -- if Stone building +1 DRM here and rubble isn't possible and you'd go straight to possible flame). If dr 1, (equalling the KIA #) the building is rubbled and the everyone in it ist kaput. The rubble creation precedes the 2MC so the MC doesn't get rolled (which matters for sniper consequences) and the flame DR doesn't get rolled because rubble creation precedes and precludes flame. (Existing Rubble can burn, but rubbling puts out flame). If there was no rubble, then do flame check. Roll DR. No EC modifier because building, just kindling of 7... a DR of 7 or more puts flame counter in the building.

phew I think that's right. RB was consulted.
 

jrv

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I believe that's right. For the possible flame/rubble you don't need the TH DR to be two only the effects DR, but I think you got that.

As a minor bit of trivia, rubbling on a fire attack (as here) eliminates all unarmored units [B24.11], but not all forms of rubble creation do that. A single-story house that rubbles when a CT AFV enters does not affect the occupants [B23.41].

JR
 

Pyth

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For the possible flame/rubble you don't need the TH DR to be two only the effects DR, but I think you got that.
I did know that but I think it might have looked like I thought a TH 2 or a CH was necessary, so clarification appreciated...

Second thing that I might have inadvertently suggested is that this is ATT only...which is false .An Original ITT KIA result uses same rubble/flame process.... of course with unhalved FP.
 

Eagle4ty

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I did know that but I think it might have looked like I thought a TH 2 or a CH was necessary, so clarification appreciated...

Second thing that I might have inadvertently suggested is that this is ATT only...which is false .An Original ITT KIA result uses same rubble/flame process.... of course with unhalved FP.
Either FP column, ITT-12/14FP or ATT-6FP, will require an original IFT effects DR of 2 to be eligible for Rubble Creation, or Flame Creation should Rubble Creation dr fail (B24.11 & B25.13).
 

labelcd6

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Thanks for everyone's help!

I worked through what I think you all said here:

But I am not worrying about the CHs yet!
 

WuWei

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Keep in mind that there are two different kinds of modifiers. One kind modifies the TH# (range, smoke), the other kind modifies the TH DR (concealment, BU and lots of others). This distinction is important in some cases, for example when it comes to critical hits on the ITT, so it's best to just not mix them up in the first place.
 
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