Tank warfare in full ASL

[ForgetFullPhil]

I am a recent upgrader from ASLSK#3 to full ASL. I must confess to being more than a little bewildered by the Bounding First Fire rules. I have an slow turret AFV in its MPh and it arrives in a hex whereby both sides have had LoS for 2MP. It chooses to fire at a 2 hex range. The Firer based DRMs are Case C2 (which is Case C +2) which for a ST is 4. But wait! Case C says you must add Case B! which is another +2. Which is correct? I checked this against what starter kit 3 would have deduced and that would be a total of +4 not +6, so I am tempted to thing that you do not add Case B to the total in this case. Assistance required!
ForgetFul

 

[bendizoid]

During the movement phase you typically don’t apply the ST +2. If your tank is BU this is your basic number: case C +2, case B +2, Bu +1, range two —1= +4 like you thought.

 

[jrv]

I have an slow turret AFV in its MPh and it arrives in a hex whereby both sides have had LoS for 2MP. It chooses to fire at a 2 hex range. The Firer based DRMs are Case C2 (which is Case C +2) which for a ST is 4. But wait! Case C says you must add Case B! which is another +2. Which is correct? I checked this against what starter kit 3 would have deduced and that would be a total of +4 not +6, so I am tempted to thing that you do not add Case B to the total in this case. Assistance required!
ForgetFul

First, has the vehicle stopped? If not you also need to pay C⁴. Case C² is +2 plus case C, and case C is +2 plus case B for a total +6 DRM.

According to my ASLSK#3 charts, the TH DRM for case 14, sub-case "BFF ≤ 2 MP in LOS T/ST" is +6.

JR

 

[bendizoid]

I also forgot limited aim case j,

 

[bendizoid]

Is there gyrostabilizer in play, what terrain or size modifiers on the target? Are you stopped and/or Bu? Armor leader ? Inexperienced crew?

 

[jrv]

The shortcut answer is that a vehicle using BFF is +4 DRM for T/ST, +5 for NT. That covers case B and (plain) case C. You then add additional DRM like limited time in LOS (cases C¹ & case C²), non-stopped (case C⁴), BU, point-blank range, etc. If there is a gyrostabilizer involved, forget everything and spend an hour reading the rulebook.

JR

 

[jrv]

Is there gyrostabilizer in play, what terrain or size modifiers on the target?

As far as I know there are no gyrostabilizers on ST (or, heaven help us, NT) vehicles. All are T (fast turret).

JR

 

[ForgetFullPhil]

Beg pardon. Firer is Stopped. So do you think +4 DRM or +6.

 

[bendizoid]

The shortcut answer is that a vehicle using BFF is +4 DRM for T/ST, +5 for NT. That covers case B and (plain) case C. You then add additional DRM like limited time in LOS (cases C¹ & case C²), non-stopped (case C⁴), BU, point-blank range, etc.

JR

That’s the easy way to remember, to start calculating numbers; +3 for gyro, +4 regular tank, +5 non turrented.

 

[bendizoid]

What is the target and what kind of terrain ?

 

[jrv]

Beg pardon. Firer is Stopped. So do you think +4 DRM or +6.

Not being stopped would make things worse, that's all. For a stopped firer as I said in my answer above, both ASL and ASLSK agree the answer is a +6 DRM.

There are lots of other DRM that might apply. In particular for range == 2 the point blank range DRM (case L, SK case 25) -1 DRM will apply if the target is not a Motion vehicle. Also BU, target size, etc. But for the part regarding case C, +6.

JR

 

[bendizoid]

I’m guessing he’s BU, I’m guessing no modifiers from the target, I’m guessing no hindrances, apparently he stopped, ok, In ASL it’s +5.

 

[jrv]

I’m guessing he’s BU, I’m guessing no modifiers from the target, I’m guessing no hindrances, apparently he stopped, ok, In ASL it’s +5.

It's +6 DRM for Cases C², C & B. If BU also applies, that's a +1 DRM, and if point-blank range applies, that's a -1 DRM.

JR

 

[bendizoid]

I figured limited aim +1, I guess it’s +2, ok

 

[General Mayhem]

I am a recent upgrader from ASLSK#3 to full ASL. I must confess to being more than a little bewildered by the Bounding First Fire rules.

Don't worry I have been playing ASL for over 30 years and I am still bewildered by the Bounding First fire rules.

 

[jrv]

Don't worry I have been playing ASL for over 30 years and I am still bewildered by the Bounding First fire rules.

T/ST: +4, NT +5. Then add the rest of the stuff. You hardly ever run into limited time in LOS because as the moving player you typically control that. I would have to look it up to determine the exact MP count cutoffs.

Gyrostabilizers I don't include in my shortcut because they aren't that common, and there are other things you have to do differently. Instead of doubling the lower die you add +1, so you often don't stop with gyros. If you have a gyrostabilizer and stop, then +3 is right.

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

The initial problem seems to have been from his understanding of ASLSK DRMs to be utilized in his attack. If "Decision At Elst" (the only ASLSK product I have) Charts are no different from other ASLSK ones for vehicles, the OP failed to pick the correct modifiers from the item 14 Bounding (First) fire [B(F)F] listing. Since the vehicle had used BFF on a target with only 2MP in LOS he should have referenced the last entry for T/ST which is indeed +6. As indicated by others the Case C* modifiers from ASL equate to the same for a T/ST AFV: Case C2=+2 and Case C (which includes Case B)=+4) for a total of +6. Other modifiers for BU, Intensive Fire, etc. applied as necessary.

 

[bendizoid]

Shoot on 4

 

[Eagle4ty]

Shoot on 4

Yup, it's my rub point!?

 

[ForgetFullPhil]

Thanks everyone. So lets introduce some total clarity here! Lets also forget the target based DRMs as that is not what the query is about.

So we have a ST AFV in the MPh which wants to make Bounding Fire. They have been in the enemy's LoS for 2MP, through delay or whatever,and have stopped.
Case C2 is the relevant one
Case C2 says Add together Case C +2, (involving an ST firer)
Case C also says add Case B which is a further plus 2: Total = +6
Why does Case B add to the confusion by saying it is used for fire in the AFPh which is NOT this phase!!
It also mentions not entering a new hex in that Player Turn which in this case happens to be also wrong!!
This is why I consider it arguable whether Case B should be invoked or not. However I think that the consensus is don't take table C3 TH too literally and just go ahead and apply Case B.
Once again, thanks everyone!
ForgetFul