Talking Turkey about a Tovarisch with a Tokarev...

witchbottles

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The dreaded 9-0s (or worse, 10-0s) walk about the backfield, "motivating" the broken or disrupted into the fight one way, or the other...... Let's talk about Commissars.

During the period where the swap out is allowed, (up to a scenario date of 10-31-42) - the majority (but not all) of the scenarios you are likely to see them in have the Russians defending. With their superheroic powers of ignoring DM status and raising the ML of any MMC stacked with them by one with just a wave of their latest motivational speeches about saving Mother Russia, they are rather often seen in these scenarios.

Certainly, if it is allowed by # of leaders in the OB and by the scenario date, switching out the lowly 8-0 for a grand and resplendent loyal party member 9-0 makes perfect sense. You gain everything possible and lose nothing at all. but let's talk about the tougher choice. Swapping out the 8-1 for the 9-0's superior, the division's political reliability officer himself, the dreaded 10-0 Commissar.

When do you choose to do this?

The trite answer is "it depends" , but I am interested in what circumstances everyone uses to decide if it is time for "it depends" to kick in or not.

Do you value the -1 LDRM over the powers of a Commissar who is nigh unbreakable with a 10 ML himself?

Do you make that choice based on the number and type of SWs allotted in your OB?

Is it something you consider the function of the Russian leaders in the game? Obviously, a vast majority of these are going to have a limited number of SMCs for the Russians to begin with, so their primary function regardless of LDRMs is going to be rallying broken troops back into the fight, over any fire direction leadership opportunities.

Maybe it's the terrain you grok to make this choice? In a close action city fight, you take the Commissar every time in exchange for a lost -1 LDRM, but in an open battlefield, you feel the extra -1 LDRM will come into play enough to counterbalance leaving some broke units to their own devices.?

The choice is not always a simple one. Sometimes a scenario may turn on the ability to ensure that HMG gets his fire lane every turn until it malfs out, and sacrificing a powerful ML 10 Commissar in order to tie him to the HMG position seems to be a waste of his resources. the 8-1 with a manning 4-4-7 and another 4-4-7 concealed just behind and out of LOS, to step up when the original guy breaks and drops the HMG, is the ideal position in that case. Then the -1 LDRM can be used for fire direction, for passing MC's and TC's and for the odd rally attempt if the HMG teams are both broken and time allows for him to try rallying one of them before the position gets overrun by the enemy forces.

So what do you look at before you make that pre-setup choice to swap out the 8-1 for that lord of the local party committee, the 10-0 commissar?

KRL, Jon H
 

Tuomo

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I'm hard-pressed to think of a situation where I'd rather have the 8-1. The 10-0 can help an MG avoid Cowering just as well, and my MG's rarely keep ROF anyway. They have the same movement benefits as normal leaders do. On defense, which as you said is where most Commissar opportunities show up in the first place, you're really relying on FFNAM/FFMO DRMs more than leadership modifiers anyway, since you're mostly First Firing on attacking units as they move. Good defenders usually don't Prep Fire much, instead preferring to skulk or otherwise reposition outside the LOS of attacking units as they set up for the Attacker's next Movement Phase. So in that context, the 8-1's negative modifier really isn't what a defender should be maximizing anyway.

Plus, 10-0's have a certain gravitas that 8-1's don't. Not just in that extra digit on the counter, but because it's just so darn deflating to see broken Russian units come back from DM so quickly - often having routed to a better position. And I'll take every little bit of emotional advantage I can get.
 

witchbottles

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I'm hard-pressed to think of a situation where I'd rather have the 8-1. The 10-0 can help an MG avoid Cowering just as well, and my MG's rarely keep ROF anyway. They have the same movement benefits as normal leaders do. On defense, which as you said is where most Commissar opportunities show up in the first place, you're really relying on FFNAM/FFMO DRMs more than leadership modifiers anyway, since you're mostly First Firing on attacking units as they move. Good defenders usually don't Prep Fire much, instead preferring to skulk or otherwise reposition outside the LOS of attacking units as they set up for the Attacker's next Movement Phase. So in that context, the 8-1's negative modifier really isn't what a defender should be maximizing anyway.

Plus, 10-0's have a certain gravitas that 8-1's don't. Not just in that extra digit on the counter, but because it's just so darn deflating to see broken Russian units come back from DM so quickly - often having routed to a better position. And I'll take every little bit of emotional advantage I can get.
Perhaps one of the most demoralizing parts is to your opponent, who thinks to himself "yes, run away you slimy 4-4-7s I turned into 4-2-6's because you all failed that miserably low ELR and are now all DM" - just to watch the commissar rally the whole stack of them (needing only a 7 or less to do so in rally terrain. The enemy line reforms almost immediately, albeit with a shorter range now.
 

Vinnie

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I'll often make the change on the attack as well. The Soviet horde sweeps forwards and slowly disintegrates but gets itself back together to continue the attack. The higher morale make him more likely to pass and be there or concentrates the enemies attention on him. Both of these can be exploited.
 

jrv

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Perhaps one of the most demoralizing parts is to your opponent, who thinks to himself "yes, run away you slimy 4-4-7s I turned into 4-2-6's because you all failed that miserably low ELR and are now all DM" - just to watch the commissar rally the whole stack of them (needing only a 7 or less to do so in rally terrain. The enemy line reforms almost immediately, albeit with a shorter range now.
What are the odds? In rally terrain the commissar will rally a conscript halfsquad on a seven or less and will casualty reduce on an eight or greater. Ignoring the double-whack for a boxcars:

Three rallied, zero casualty reduced = 19.8%
Two rallied, one casualty reduced = 42.5%
One rallied, two casualty reduced = 30.4%
Zero rallied, three casualty reduced = 7.2%

On average the commissar will CR (and not rally) 1.25 conscript squads. On average the line reforms but with shorter range and *fewer counters*.

Comparing the 8-1 in rally terrain with DM, where a conscript rallies on a three or less (again ignoring the CR for boxcars)

Three rallied = 0.1%
Two rallied = 1.9%
One rallied = 21.0%
Zero rallied = 77.0%

The 8-1 in rally terrain without DM is the same as the commissar, but without CR (ignoring boxcars).

The commissar with conscripts is a tradeoff. It gets them back quicker but usually fewer of them.

If the rally can't be done in rally terrain, that's much worse:

Three rallied, zero casualty reduced = 7.2%
Two rallied, one casualty reduced = 30.4%
One rallied, two casualty reduced = 42.5%
Zero rallied, three casualty reduced = 19.8%

An average of 1.75 squads is casualty reduced in that case.

One of the easiest ways to end up with a small band ready to die in defense of родина is to start with a large band ready to die in defense of родина and a commissar.

JR
 
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jrv

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Certainly, if it is allowed by # of leaders in the OB and by the scenario date, switching out the lowly 8-0 for a grand and resplendent loyal party member 9-0 makes perfect sense. You gain everything possible and lose nothing at all.
The 9-0 will ELR or kill units that fail to rally. The 8-0 will never kill units that fail to rally (ignoring boxcars). That's a bit of a difference.

JR
 

hongkongwargamer

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You are comparing a Commissar against a 8-1 with no DM. However the DM is also a factor. That's likely to mean that you are rallying every OTHER RPh instead of every RPh.

You having a Commissar who gives the possibility of rallying every RPh vs your opponent (unless IJA) who has to wait every other RPh provided that your brokies are not DM'd again makes a marked difference in terms of OODA'ing your opponent's OB.

Yes .. there's possibility that less might come back but there's also possibility that some will rally quicker to get the drop on your opponent who is likely still waiting, assuming they won't be DM'd again, in which case they might wait even longer.
 
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GeorgeBates

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Trading an 8-1 for a 10-0 makes very good sense when the scenario is expected to conclude with an Alamo situation in which the Commissar is likely to be fired upon as s/he goes about spreading smiley faces. The 10ML leader passes an NMC 91.7% of the time, the 9ML leader does so at a respectable 83.3%, but I want that extra 8.4% to have a guy or gal who is on the line when it counts better than 9 times out of ten.
 

hongkongwargamer

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The 8-1 in rally terrain without DM is the same as the commissar, but without CR (ignoring boxcars).

The commissar with conscripts is a tradeoff. It gets them back quicker but usually fewer of them.
Mate, this is what I am referring to. However, you didn't address the battle effect of being able to get back to action immediately versus having to wait or to wait even longer if re-DM'd.
 

jrv

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Mate, this is what I am referring to.
But this below was not present when you viewed my first post? Weird. Well, here it is again.

Comparing the 8-1 in rally terrain with DM, where a conscript rallies on a three or less (again ignoring the CR for boxcars)

Three rallied = 0.1%
Two rallied = 1.9%
One rallied = 21.0%
Zero rallied = 77.0%
That's an 8-1 *with* DM. I'm still seeing it in my first post too.

JR
 
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sunoftzu

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Time. It comes down to how much time you have on your hands.

If you're doing a point defense and have to rally in a hurry, then a Commissar is ideal. But if you are in a situation where you have more time to rally, then those Unit Replacements/Casualty Reductions start to be felt, especially if the Russian OoB contains a lot of conscript squads.

A few weeks back, I played ASL-167 "Breakout From Praaza" with Peter Palmer. He had a Commissar in his OoB, but you could be forgiven for not noticing. Peter avoided rallying with it completely for about the first 5 turns of the game, despite an aggressive attack that was taking not-a-few breaks. He instead left the rallying (most often for Conscript units) to the non-Commissar leaders, so as to avoid suffering Unit Replacements. When the scenario time began to get tighter in the back half of the game, only then did he use the Commissar for rallying. Quite a sound strategy, which also illustrates well the points touched on in this thread, I thought...….

John.
 

GeorgeBates

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A few weeks back, I played ASL-167 "Breakout From Praaza" with Peter Palmer. He had a Commissar in his OoB, but you could be forgiven for not noticing. Peter avoided rallying with it completely for about the first 5 turns of the game, despite an aggressive attack that was taking not-a-few breaks. He instead left the rallying (most often for Conscript units) to the non-Commissar leaders, so as to avoid suffering Unit Replacements. When the scenario time began to get tighter in the back half of the game, only then did he use the Commissar for rallying. Quite a sound strategy, which also illustrates well the points touched on in this thread, I thought...
You and Peter both thought well.

"Hey, senorita, that's astute"
I said, "Why don't we get together
And call ourselves an institute?"
 
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hongkongwargamer

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But this below was not present when you viewed my first post? Weird. Well, here it is again.



That's an 8-1 *with* DM. I'm still seeing it in my first post too.

JR
It is.

So first you compared Commissars again 8-1 with DM .. and Commissars rally them well in comparison (of course)

Then you make the statement : The 8-1 in rally terrain without DM is the same as the commissar, but without CR (ignoring boxcars).

In which case - I am saying .. wait .. in an actual situation, you lose one player turn before your next chance .. and that's a significant difference in "reaction time" especially when you stack games turns together.
 

hongkongwargamer

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Time. It comes down to how much time you have on your hands.

If you're doing a point defense and have to rally in a hurry, then a Commissar is ideal. But if you are in a situation where you have more time to rally, then those Unit Replacements/Casualty Reductions start to be felt, especially if the Russian OoB contains a lot of conscript squads.

A few weeks back, I played ASL-167 "Breakout From Praaza" with Peter Palmer. He had a Commissar in his OoB, but you could be forgiven for not noticing. Peter avoided rallying with it completely for about the first 5 turns of the game, despite an aggressive attack that was taking not-a-few breaks. He instead left the rallying (most often for Conscript units) to the non-Commissar leaders, so as to avoid suffering Unit Replacements. When the scenario time began to get tighter in the back half of the game, only then did he use the Commissar for rallying. Quite a sound strategy, which also illustrates well the points touched on in this thread, I thought...….

John.
Yes .. probably shouldn't leave Conscripts with Commissars if given a choice. They are not as functional even when rallied anyway.
 

jrv

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In which case - I am saying .. wait .. in an actual situation, you lose one player turn before your next chance .. and that's a significant difference in "reaction time" especially when you stack games turns together.
So when I said:

The commissar with conscripts is a tradeoff. It gets them back quicker but usually fewer of them.
That to me sounds like the same thing you said, yes? And I said it in the original post. Now I didn't specify a time because with the 8-1 you have the possibility that the broken units will re-DM, making the expected length of time that they remain broken longer.

JR
 

hongkongwargamer

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Oh right .. You are saying the same thing I said .. so "You Are NOT Wrong." Here ya go. :)

One of the easiest ways to end up with a large band all broken & doing nothing in defense of родина is to start with a larger band ready to die in defense of родина and no commissar.


So when I said:



That to me sounds like the same thing you said, yes? And I said it in the original post. Now I didn't specify a time because with the 8-1 you have the possibility that the broken units will re-DM, making the expected length of time that they remain broken longer.

JR
 

Jacometti

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In a well designed scenario involving early war Russians, you should have a mass of infantry with very few leaders. Remember the LG (Leader Generation) for the Russkies is 8.

Many scenario designers do not like this and mess with it, sometimes providing the Russians with the same leader ratio and quality as the German or British army. That is crap.

If you have 8 squads for every leader, whether on attack or defense, your troops will soon be scattered all over the place. You MUST choose the Commissar to not waste any more time than necessary for Rallying, then the man with the Tokarev should move on to the next bunch of broken peasants.

So: normally Commissar Exchange should be a no brainer. Unless the designer is having his own ideas about the early war Soviet army.
 

daniel zucker

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In a well designed scenario involving early war Russians, you should have a mass of infantry with very few leaders. Remember the LG (Leader Generation) for the Russkies is 8.

Many scenario designers do not like this and mess with it, sometimes providing the Russians with the same leader ratio and quality as the German or British army. That is crap.

If you have 8 squads for every leader, whether on attack or defense, your troops will soon be scattered all over the place.
If (you) the game player have your troops scattered all over the place then your doing something wrong, tactically. Like not fighting the Russians in a historical manor (?) [Not counting for bad luck, better opponent, or a dog scenario]. I have found that the Russian needs to keep the enemy close but his Commissar closer.


You MUST choose the Commissar to not waste any more time than necessary for Rallying, then the man with the Tokarev should move on to the next bunch of broken peasants.

So: normally Commissar Exchange should be a no brainer. Unless the designer is having his own ideas about the early war Soviet army.
I agree and that can make good situation bark like a dog
 

Jacometti

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If (you) the game player have your troops scattered all over the place then your doing something wrong, tactically. Like not fighting the Russians in a historical manor (?) [Not counting for bad luck, better opponent, or a dog scenario]. I have found that the Russian needs to keep the enemy close but his Commissar closer.
You do not have the leaders to deal with all broken Russians, who will generally rout in different directions based on enemy presence. Especially when crossing some open ground.

If you look at a Russian infantry attack after 3-4 Turns, you typically find broken Russian HS and squads littered around the battlefield in Rally Terrain, waiting for their possible turn to self-rally.

You do not have to do much wrong tactically for that to happen. The Rout Rules pretty much guarantee that broken units will scatter as they are forced to rout towards the nearest woods/building in MF.
 
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