Tacticians or Lawyers?

Where lies the 'edge' in the game of ASL?

  • The rules

    Votes: 54 36.0%
  • Tactics

    Votes: 96 64.0%

  • Total voters
    150

alanp

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hey, Purdyrc:

you weren't being a rules lawyer by pointing out the MP cost to enter a wooden building; a rules lawyer would be someone who said, " it's 'MF' that infantry spend, not 'MP'!" and be a snot about it :D

Alan
 

Treadhead

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I voted for "the rules".

I believe one cannot develop good tactics unless you have a mastery of the rules. Show me a good ASL tactician, and I'll show you someone intimately familiar with the ASLRB.

Regards,
Bruce Bakken
 

RobZagnut

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Tactics. No questions asked. Why? I’ll give you two examples.

1) Our group has a ‘rules lawyer’. When someone wants to know the correct answer we ask him. But, he is not a good player. He has never beaten me. My record against him is maybe 19 - 0. He knows the rules better than me, but can’t beat me. He is not a good tactician and makes setup errors, basic tactical mistakes (stacking) and can be baited into counter-attacking a lone tank while he is on defense which then opens up holes in his defense, etc. Although, he is a superior strategist and excels in wargames like World in Flames, Paths of Glory and Empires in Arms.

I’ll take a better tactician every time, because he will get better the more he plays and learns the rules. Someone without inherent basic tactical skills will not get much better no matter how much he knows the rules.

2) Just played a newbie this Friday. It was only his second game of ASL. His first game on defense. I knew from the moment we started playing that he is going to be a great player. He had an extremely well thought out defense, he asked excellent questions about tactics, he made good defensive decisions and I found myself wondering on turn 3, “Am I going to get beat by a newbie?!!!” Fortunately (unfortunately), he made two critical mistakes that I was able to exploit which turned the game around.

He had almost no rules knowledge, but almost beat me due to his excellent play. Only two tactical errors cost him the game. You can teach rules and you can teach basic tactics, but you can’t teach that particular tactical skill that separates the excellent player from the good player.
 
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Legion

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pitman said:
But the reverse is not necessarily true.
Yup, gotta agree with that... Knowledge of the rules, as i mentioned above is not necessarily enough to know how and whne to use them
 

J. R. Tracy

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Sound tactics trump rules knowledge. If I took the five most rules-savvy players versus the five best tacticians that I know, there's only one overlap (and I might be giving him too much credit on the rules side) and the balance of the tacticians would beat the rules guys without breaking a sweat. Rules knowledge is necessary to apply good tactics, but beyond that, the game rewards intuitive play.

JR
 

purdyrc

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Of course, hot dice trumps them all! On any given day, a string of "2's" and "3's" will beat a good tactician and the best rules guy nearly every time.

- Rick
 

Pitman

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The game rewards intuitive play (over rules-expertise-based play) in some situations, but not in others. Want to save that Sherman with a Panther's MA pointed right at him? Trust the rules expert.
 

RobZagnut

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>Want to save that Sherman with a Panther's MA pointed right at him? Trust the rules expert.

I would still take the tactician. Rules knowledge doesn't always apply to performance on the board.

Had this happen to me in a tourney. If I lost the Sherman I reached my CVP cap and I lose the game. My solution? Lots of infantry Smoke between the Panther and the Sherman.
 

Pitman

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Sorry, but if you don't know the rules, then you won't know that you can apply them. If you have a "tank in trouble," you won't be able to extricate it unless you are a rules master. You need to be completely conversant with the SMOKE rules, the smoke dispenser rules, the smoke grenade rules (and know which will serve you better), infantry smoke rules, the motion rules, the bounding fire rules, the platoon movement rules, the gun duel rules, and much else.

The "tank in trouble" is a rules knowledge situation, not a gut instinct situation.
 

J. R. Tracy

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Well, intuition says "Smoke" and the rules take you from there. You don't need to have intimate knowledge of Smoke and all it's glory, effect of Gusts, availability of WP for all but whatever force you're using, etc - you just figure out how to get the Smoke down. If you're talking about remembering to fire it first in the Prep phase, then you're talking newbie versus experienced player, which isn't the same as rules lawyer versus tactician.

JR
 

zgrose

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The only honorable resolution to this question is to get a tourney started: Tacticians vs rules lawyers!
 

Loquitor

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zgrose said:
The only honorable resolution to this question is to get a tourney started: Tacticians vs rules lawyers!

Ohhhh nooooooo where would I fit in a tactician who is a lawyer?
 

Mudranger

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Gotta go with tactics on this one. I see this analogy: rules are to the ASL commander like terrain limitations, weapons deployment, squad capabilites etc. are to the infantry commander. Rules provide the framework within which we have to devise tactics to overcome limitations, use our advantage and contain the enemy within his/her constraints. See, never even used the R word.

Nothin new, just my perspective.

Dave
 

Roy

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zgrose said:
The only honorable resolution to this question is to get a tourney started: Tacticians vs rules lawyers!
Crap! I'd love to play, but I'm niether. :eek:
 

alanp

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I think the expert tactician will have fewer "tank in trouble" situations in the first place.
 

Matt Book

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What came first the rule book or the tactics ?

I would say rules, because tactics were there before the rules. So you have to get the rules down in order to develop tactics around them. Everyone knows to flank the line or punch a hole in a line, you can use that in alot of games. How many at first knew the VBM freeze until it got used ? Not many, and then it got published, becoming public knowledge. I think the rules starts the cycle.......
 

PZchala

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Overall, I think the edge lies in having good tactics. That is because, once you learn the basic rules, those are largely all that you are using in playing most scenarios. (I call "most sceanrios" as being just infantry, with a few vehicles or guns possibly included.)

The rules edge can take over in certain situations. If your playing someone who doesn't have much of a clue as to how to take out your AFV's when he doesn't have any AT capability, then that is certainly an advantage.
 

Loquitor

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I would rather win with my tactics....I can lawyer anytime and I can see the ASL Lawyer in some of the questions that get raised from time to time

I would hate to play a game that got tied up with a debate about a rule that going one way would really go against the heart of the system
 
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