Tacticians or Lawyers?

Where lies the 'edge' in the game of ASL?

  • The rules

    Votes: 54 36.0%
  • Tactics

    Votes: 96 64.0%

  • Total voters
    150

Chris Milne

Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
675
Reaction score
3
Location
Letchworth, UK
Country
ll
I know that occasionally my play might indicate that I've failed my PMC. Normally this is when I'm tired (e.g., at the end of a tourney), I'm on the back foot, and I start thinking that the dice can win it for me. I take more and more extravagant risks. You know the feeling - if I push this squad into CC here, avoid ambush, roll low and kill those two squad and a leader, this game will turn!

Rarely works, and it's more a function of my poor thought processes than a belief that I'm outclassed, but it might appear differently to others. I've played games where my opponent has done exactly the same thing.

My view on this is simple. Good dice or poor dice at an important moment can swing the game if it's evenly balanced. Good tactics and an appreciation of the rules will make sure the game isn't evenly balanced, and can overcome a disparity in luck. But if your troops can't hit a barn door and run away at the merest rustle in the grass, doesn't matter how good a player you are.
 

sturmovik

Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2003
Messages
42
Reaction score
0
Location
Toulouse, France
Country
llFrance
ToxicShock said:
Ah yes, the PMC. Load of rubbish.

When a player starts to think that he is on the loosing end he looses some basic ASL reflexes, tries some risky moves of no real use or even conceeds victory at mid game even if it's not justified. Personally, I go for the kamikaze solutions when I am brainwashed and feel cornered...and it rarely works.

Seems that you only play iron willed opponents then...
 

Roy

Living in Brownbackistan
Joined
Oct 1, 2003
Messages
1,347
Reaction score
643
Location
Wichita
Country
llUnited States
Thank you Tom, Andy, and Chris. I am in total agreement.

Have I ever failed my personal morale check? You bet. But it has never been because I have been out-"metagamed". It's sometimes because I've been out-diced, or out-maneuvered, but it is mostly because I've been out-played. Like last night at our club..... :crosseye:

However, I find that I accept being outplayed better now than I did earlier in my ASL career, and fail my PMC much less often.
 

Pfc TAZ

Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
Messages
163
Reaction score
20
Location
Tempe, AZ
First name
Tim
Country
llUnited States
Minaya said:
Let me defend the knowledge of the rules as a bit more important that proper tactics. IMO rules are the backbone of a game. If we speak about winning a game then tactics is fundamental but knowledge of the rules are necessary to just play the game.

I think that a deep knowledge of the rules is not enough to make a good player but you have to know them in order to be.
I agree completely. I have seen too many players have there tactics fall apart because they don't know the rules. You've got to know the rules to even begin creating good tactics.

I am just getting back into ASL after a long layoff. My tactical mind is way ahead of my legal mind. I keep shooting myself in the foot be not remembering the rules, especially terrain effects.:eek:
 

cujo8-1

The Earl of Burgundy
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
1,565
Reaction score
31
Location
ThunderDome
Country
llUnited States
Brian W said:
(Note: his damn stack shrugged off the 2-2, so my zen was unrewarded)
I hate unrewarded zen. :mad:

Knowing the rules. How many times has someone defeated you and you realize later that they were set up illegally or couldn't actually make a certain move?

Memorize and master the tome, then adjust your tactics accordingly. :devious:
 

Aries

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2002
Messages
4,187
Reaction score
5
Location
Earth
Country
llCanada
The game IS the rules, if your knowledge of them sucks, your game suffers.

But if you slip up and forget a specific wording, wasting 30 minutes getting the exacting wording straight might not always be as bright as just saying odds I am right evens you are right.

Because FTF time is precious eh, leave reading the manual for when your buddy has gone home.

I am with Don, although I would have not said Metagame, as much as "fun factor".

I play ASL because it is such a great experience.
About the only wargame I know of where winning really isn't all the important to me, just watching the events unfold is everything.
 

ToxicShock

Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
350
Reaction score
0
Location
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Country
llCanada
Aries said:
The game IS the rules, if your knowledge of them sucks, your game suffers.

But if you slip up and forget a specific wording, wasting 30 minutes getting the exacting wording straight might not always be as bright as just saying odds I am right evens you are right.

Because FTF time is precious eh, leave reading the manual for when your buddy has gone home.

I am with Don, although I would have not said Metagame, as much as "fun factor".

I play ASL because it is such a great experience.
About the only wargame I know of where winning really isn't all the important to me, just watching the events unfold is everything.
Now we're getting to the essence of the matter. What really intrigues me about this game is the exceptional circumstances that appear in a match. For example, how many times will a player have to remember the rules for an exceptional situation (climbing, swimming, unarmed in CC, infiltration, CC vs an abandoned AFV, etc).
 

Aries

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2002
Messages
4,187
Reaction score
5
Location
Earth
Country
llCanada
Yep, its not how well you play the game, but how well you enjoyed playing the game.

During the heyday of Magic The Gathering (that infernal card game to some hehe), I was considered one of the meanest nastiest hardest guys to go up against.

I never once built a tournament deck. I never once worried over having the latest killer card.

What I did, was designed 60 decks out of a massive collection of cards. I gave them all silly names, and I exploited some element of the design in a way that was easy to relate to for me.

And when one of those oh so confident tournament decks was plopped down in front of me, I merely opened my box of decks and selected the one that totally butchered that tournament decks known weaknesses.

I was having a ball, while the so called tournament grade deck for all its savvy was made into mincement hehe.

Well the point is, you can be a genius at the game (ASL), and lousy at having fun playing it :)
 

Pitman

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
14,104
Reaction score
2,371
Location
Columbus, OH
Country
llUnited States
There are three things we are talking about here:

1) Knowledge of the rules (how does a flame turn into a blaze), regardless of their application to tactics.

2) Knowledge of the rules the possession and understanding of which gives a player a particular tactical advantage (i.e., if you don't know the intricacies of bounding fire, you will never be able to use it to your advantage; if you don't know the target selection limits rule, you will never be able to do bypass sleaze, etc.).

3) Tactical acumen more or less disassociated from specific rules: i.e., knowing how to concentrate forces, how to recognize weak spots in a defense, etc.

Number 2 above should never be underestimated. If you don't fully understand a rule--AND ALL ITS IMPLICATIONS--you will never be able to take advantage of it, or prevent your opponent from doing so.

However, the person above who noted that there are people who can quote every rule but are not necessarily great players is quite right. It takes more than knowing the rules to be able to be a good ASL tactician.
 

Dr Zaius

Chief Defender of the Faith
Joined
May 1, 2001
Messages
8,902
Reaction score
408
Location
The Forbidden Zone
First name
Don
Country
llUnited States
Mark hit it right on the head. It's largely a moot question as failure on either front will likely lead to defeat. An analagy would be to ask a real soldier, "which is more important, good tactics or being able to shoot?" Failure to master either will get the soldier killed.

Ideally, any good wargame should have gameplay and tactics as it's heart and soul. Having said that, complicated rules are simply a fact of life with ASL.
 

paulkenny

Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Messages
3,848
Reaction score
54
Location
USA
should be a third category, historicity, for the simulationists amoung us.
 

Arthur H

Recruit
Joined
Aug 19, 2004
Messages
29
Reaction score
0
Location
Garner NC
Country
llUnited States
pitman said:
There are three things we are talking about here:

1) Knowledge of the rules (how does a flame turn into a blaze), regardless of their application to tactics.

2) Knowledge of the rules the possession and understanding of which gives a player a particular tactical advantage (i.e., if you don't know the intricacies of bounding fire, you will never be able to use it to your advantage; if you don't know the target selection limits rule, you will never be able to do bypass sleaze, etc.).

3) Tactical acumen more or less disassociated from specific rules: i.e., knowing how to concentrate forces, how to recognize weak spots in a defense, etc.

I know I am a little late to the tread but it is where you are at that dicates how you answer this question. If your ASL path is still in one or half way through two, then rules knowledge is the edge. Once you are halfway through two, then it is tactics.
 

purdyrc

Duke Nukem
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
278
Reaction score
3
Location
Virginia
I think tactics are dictated by rules. You have to know what you are allowed to do before you can think of how you WANT to do them.

Plus, an understanding of the rules means you can sit down and play anyone else because you both have the rules as a common foundation. Where you go from there is tactics.

So....Rules.

- Rick
 

Legion

Member
Joined
May 3, 2004
Messages
1,427
Reaction score
8
Location
Picton (NSW)
Country
llAustralia
Hmmm... 57 voters and 61% in favour of tactics... this has been good so far... i think most people understood that i asked this question from the point of view that a player understoof the difference between an AFV and OBA... and that i wanted to know what gave the greater edge...

There have been 2 aditional ideas brought up:
Metagame (out-psyching one's opponent)
Historical setting

But for me it still comes down to the choice between the 2...

i will again affirm that i choose tactics, knowledge of the rules is essential but wont tell someone WHEN to lay down a Fire Lane or WHY one should have an engineer MMC here on the board as opposed to there... even though the understanding of the relevent rules presents the options in the first place.
 

Aries

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2002
Messages
4,187
Reaction score
5
Location
Earth
Country
llCanada
At the risk of sidelining the topic (not my intention so don't give it undo response eh hehe).

But as a rolegamer we always have to deal with the rule lawyer element making the game less fun.
But that is because the rules are not critical.

The ASLRB is not a "guide" though.

The better you know the RULES, the better you will know the game.

Just the same with tools eh. It is not important if it is a hand tool or a power tool, you must master the tool before you can be any good with it.

It's a two step process.

After you master the tool, then you get to show if you have any creatvity, or you can merely use the tool competently.

The ASLRB is just that a tool.
 

purdyrc

Duke Nukem
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
278
Reaction score
3
Location
Virginia
I agree with the "tool" analogy. The better you understand the rules and their nuances, the better you will be able to exploit...er uh.. I mean... use them to your advantage.

On a similar and quasi-related topic, I've heard the phrase "rules lawyer" used a lot. I've even be called one, although I think the label was applied inappropriately. During a game, I was pointing out to my opponent (a newbie like myself) that I didn't think he was correct in some of the things he was doing (e.g., one MP to enter a wood building, moving into CC during his MPh with normal, non-fanatic infantry, routing again during a subsequent Route Phase while NOT under DM, etc.). When I challenged him on these dubious practices, he accused me of holding up the game and being a "rules lawyer".

I only played the guy once and don't intend to play him again, but it solidified for me that an understanding of the rules of the game is crucial and will dictate your tactics. This guy had his "tactics" that he had developed while learning the game, but they were not correct. Almost anyone can understand the application of firepower and the concept of defensive strong points, but if you don't know how to implement them in game terms, your understanding of these subjects means little.

- Rick
 

mgenberg

Member
Joined
May 10, 2004
Messages
92
Reaction score
0
Location
Northern, VA
Country
llUnited States
Clearly an interesting topic as indicated by the number of responses.

I voted for tactics. I think if you don't know what you want to do from a tactical standpoint, the rules won't help.

The rules can give you specific techniques that can be decisive in determining the winner. As a game, you must understand the game mechanics (how to call in OBA, VB sleeze) and this can be a deciding factor.

I've won and lost games based on rules knowledge as well as tactical knowledge.
 

Aries

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2002
Messages
4,187
Reaction score
5
Location
Earth
Country
llCanada
Occasionally I get my butt handed to me on a platter when I encounter a new opponent that has a new slant on the games I play.

I rarely know a game front and back top to bottom perfectly.

I have found in the past I was doing a process or proceedure incorrectly and usually appreciate getting corrected.

But I have encountered guys that I don't think can be summed up much differently from what purdyrc mentioned.

During a rolegame "rules Lawyer" is a put down.
During a wargame, being a rules lawyer just means you give a damn about the game being played correctly.
 

Aries

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2002
Messages
4,187
Reaction score
5
Location
Earth
Country
llCanada
Another way to look at the rules, they are just the umpire standing there watching the game really.

The umpire is just there to watch though eh.

The player has to actually play the game.
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,596
Reaction score
5,557
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
Rules first : this is a game, not a realistic simulation...
So "real" tactics won't always work well.

Now, if one knows the rules well enough, it is his tactics (adapted on ASL environnement) which shall win him the day...
Note that careful calculation of probabilities can help (an exercise a true fighter will do otherwise : "nasometer" will often be his way mesure)...
 
Top