Tacticians or Lawyers?

[Legion]

I am interested to know what people consider to be the most important part of an ASL game...

I ask this as i have been playing for many years with very few FTF partners, and it was not until i started playing VASL within the last 3 years that i have had a chance to see how poor my understanding of even some basic rules has been...

Yet i also see that that some players place more emphasis on the rules that the tactics of the game...

So no middle ground here, which is more important?

For me i said the Tactics... as i play mainly HASL's and a long drawn out game will quickly have the balance turned by even a small edge in tactical understanding

 

[Reepicheep]

I've voted for tactics as well... although bearing in mind that to execute good tactics, a good knowledge of the rules is essential. In that regard, I think tactical ability and knowledge of tactics that work (using the rules) do really go hand in hand.

 

[WaterRabbit]

They are equally important -- i.e. the tactics of ASL. If someone does not know the rules and is playing a person that knows the rules well, they will loose. The rules dictate much of the tactics. Skulking is a perfect example of this. If you applied real world tactics it would be silly to move in and out of a defensive position.

Another example of this, I played Totsugeki! with Rob Wolkey at Enfilade one year. He pulled the whole Banzi/create DC hero tactic on me. Now, while I had read the rules on this, it hadn't occured to me that one could do this. Needless to say, I lost. But someone had to have read the rules and then created the tactic -- a game tactic.

In the very next game, I played someone who had such poor knowledge of the rules that they kept trying to do things that are not allowed. He was contantly being tripped up because he didn't know what he could and couldn't do (plus he had some arrogance issues ).

You can even begin to use tactics until you understand the rules that are used in that scenario. It is pretty much a given, that you have to have memorized the sequence of play.

Now, if both players have rules mastery, then tactics are more important.

 

[zgrose]

I'd have to agree that if you don't know the rules, you are at a disadvantage. The best example I can think of is firing on moving attackers during MPh. Given the nature of the rules, the best tactics have to fit within those constraints.

On the other hand, something like skulking is a good example of trying to fit a perfectly valid tactic (seeking cover within a building) within the limitations of the rules (+3 TEM for a stone building is as good as it gets).

Coming from a Close Combat/Combat Mission background, I was a little surprised that units are always "fully exposed" when in a building. I had become very used to crawling my MG crews to the rear of a building to avoid enemy fire.

 

[The Purist]

Tactics,...within the constrainst of the rules. The rules of the game determine the tactics used. Master the rules, master the tactics. Master the tactics, win the battle.

See,...life is simple.

 

[WaterRabbit]

Black Book of ASL Sleaze

This thread prompted me to get off my butt and find The Big Black Book of ASL Sleaze.

It was originally posted to the ASLML in July of 2000 by Zeke Crater -- one of the few useful items on the list.

Read through this and you will see why it is so important to know the rules.

 

[ToxicShock]

I would say that the most important part of an ASL game is learning from your mistakes.

 

[alanp]

I chose tactics.

There are MANY situations I can think of where I've won games against people who know the rules much better than I--and no, it wasn't just luck It's often the case that someone tries something 'game-legal' which doesn't help them achieve the VCs. The 'Wolkey' example (above) shows good tactics as well--he'll get you with both superior tactics AND rules, from what I hear(haven't had the pleasure. . .)

Here's a thought experiment: who would win--a computer program (that 'knows' the rules inside-out) or a reasonably competent human? I say the human, 9 times out of 10--OK, maybe 7. . . Is this simply a programming limit? I know that DeepBlue finally got the jump on us a couple of years ago with chess, but there's a lot to this game(ASL) besides the "Tome". That's why we all love it, right?

Alan

 

[Priest]

I'd agree a good understanding of the rules and good tactics are equally important.

 

[Roy]

Tactics over rules.

I have personally seen, and heard of well known players who are very versed in the rules, can answer most any rules question, but who are also only average to below average players.

For me, I can know all the rules I want, but my game is usually shot because I took the HMG or the ATG out of the scenario on my own through not seeing the situation clearly. Ask my opponents, they know. :crosseye:

 

[MajorDomo]

Tactics or rules

My experience learning ASL suggests that a tiered approach between tactics and rules would have been the best way to go.

1. Learn the basic infantry/terrain rules.
2. Play ASLSK or CH All-American pack until you work out you rules misperceptions and also start understanding infantry tactics.
3. When you have a reading opportunity, pick one of the scenarios with in a lone gun, tank or other toy to give you some variety.
4. After finishing the series of scenarios, go back to a couple of early ones and replay, analyzing with your now better understanding.
5. Play the "Last Bid" from Red Barricades.

Just kidding on #5, it should read "just keep playing"
Rich

 

[WaterRabbit]

There is also a third component, aside from rules and tactics. You might call it the metagame. Rounders with Matt Damon and Edward Norton explores this concept quite well. (Especially the games with Mike against KGB (John Malcovitch)).

It is this component that is mostly lost in PBEM -- bluffing, body language, and social cues.

I have to disagree with the BigBad just a little bit. Most of the players I have observed that know the rules well usually know the tactics fairly well. The ones that are average or so, haven't mastered the metagame. Their opponents make them to react to meaningless threats and divert their attention from the deadly ones.

It think it would be better to say that knowledge of the rules doesn't assure that you will win the game, but it can sure loose the game for you. I came in second in Enfilade '99 to Phil Petry playing "Le Herisson", partly because we both forgot that a MG cannot Shock an AFV, only Stun it.

I would definitely agree with Toxic about learning from your mistakes. After any game, I go back over it in my head and look up any rules associated with critical points during the game. Also, one of the advantages of playing in tournaments is that you are exposed to lots of different playing styles and tactics.

 

[Dr Zaius]

There is also a third component, aside from rules and tactics. You might call it the metagame.

It is this component that is mostly lost in PBEM -- bluffing, body language, and social cues.

Well, that's a fascinating concept that I don't believe I have ever seen anyone put into words before. What you're essentially saying is that an experienced ASLer will incorporate "Poker-style" elements into his/her approach. While it's certainly true that all players do this to one extent or another, I never really gave it any thought until now.

Food for thought.

 

[Legion]

There is also a third component, aside from rules and tactics. You might call it the metagame.

While this is certainly an interesting take on a possible third 'most important aspect' of the game, i wonder if it might not be just a sub-strata of 'tactics'; for sure the use of misleading or 'random' ambushes and bluffing on the board is a tactical decision that can often have effect far superior to the break or KIA they might cause.

Personally i would suggest that the physical bluffing (a la Poker) is a minor part of the whole of the game, and while there is sure to be a certain level of effect from it - it is hardly something a solid defence of aggressive offence can be built upon.

 

[Brian W]

Personally i would suggest that the physical bluffing (a la Poker) is a minor part of the whole of the game, and while there is sure to be a certain level of effect from it - it is hardly something a solid defence of aggressive offence can be built upon.

I played two turns of a scenario with Mark Zimmerman a few months back and had held fire with a concealed half-squad. Finally, Mark (who knows I am a hold fire kind of guy), says to me, "Those are dummies; you aren't zen enough to hold fire that long." Well, after I blastigated his leader+squad running in the open, I replied, "Oh I'm fucking zen baby".

(Note: his damn stack shrugged off the 2-2, so my zen was unrewarded)

 

[WaterRabbit]

While this is certainly an interesting take on a possible third 'most important aspect' of the game, i wonder if it might not be just a sub-strata of 'tactics'; for sure the use of misleading or 'random' ambushes and bluffing on the board is a tactical decision that can often have effect far superior to the break or KIA they might cause.

Personally i would suggest that the physical bluffing (a la Poker) is a minor part of the whole of the game, and while there is sure to be a certain level of effect from it - it is hardly something a solid defence of aggressive offence can be built upon.

Watch Rounders. It is way more than bluffing. It is unintentionally giving information away. Everyone that competes at the Poker Championship knows the rules (i.e. three of a kind beats a pair.) and they all know the tactics (i.e. don’t draw for an inside straight). So, there are only two elements left, luck and the metagame, just like ASL.

In both Poker and ASL you use tactics to minimize the effect of luck. You also use the metagame to minimize the effect of luck. In poker this is expressed in betting strategies, reading your opponent, and the information you give away (i.e. how good is your poker face?). ASL has all of the same metagame possibilities. We “bet” when we move a unit; we calculate the odds of each potential shot before we take it. Often by body language alone we can make an opponent fire/not fire when you want them to. If you watch an opponent carefully, he will give away the location of his HIP units long before he reveals them. I would argue that mastery of the metagame is essential to playing the Japanese (especially in caves). Games with little hidden information (i.e. The Guards Counterattack) have diminished possibilities for the metagame.

So, just like poker, when your skill is low, the metagame is lost on you. However, if two players have mastered the rules and tactics, then the metagame has a bigger influence. That is the main reason ASL is better face-to-face than PBEM. Chess, for example, has no metagame to it (because there is no hidden information or luck), which is why it is rather dull to play face-to-face, but is ideal for PBEM. It is the same reason video poker is rather dull, but face-to-face poker is da’bomb (even if it is just penny ante).

Let me give you a perfect example: I am in the middle of playing Crocodile Rock right now using VASL. This game has Mud and tanks, thus invoking the use of the Secret Bog DR. Now, in a face-to-face game, just after you make the Secret Bog DR for your opponent you could flash him a or conversely give him a stony stare or even mix it up. Now your opponent obviously knows you’re jacking with him, but it’s all part of the fun. And there is certainly an etiquette to this – it is possible to go over line. I’ve seen it a couple of times, but for the most part everyone knows where the line is and doesn’t cross it.

This, at its very heart, is the difference between a social game and a computer game. If you don’t like the metagame, then PBEM or VASL or SASL provides a better venue. However, in my mind ftf ASL is the perfect fusion that provides both a challenge to my memory (rules), intellect (tactics), and camaraderie (metagame). The players that win consistently at tournaments have mastered all three.

 

[sturmovik]

I completely agree with this metagame notion. It exists and can be very important. I have already won some games (and probably lost a some too)by putting my opponents DM before their squads. Just by acting if as if all was going exactly has planned and they had no options left.

 

[Minaya]

Let me defend the knowledge of the rules as a bit more important that proper tactics. IMO rules are the backbone of a game. If we speak about winning a game then tactics is fundamental but knowledge of the rules are necessary to just play the game.

I think that a deep knowledge of the rules is not enough to make a good player but you have to know them in order to be.

 

[ToxicShock]

I completely agree with this metagame notion. It exists and can be very important. I have already won some games (and probably lost a some too)by putting my opponents DM before their squads. Just by acting if as if all was going exactly has planned and they had no options left.

Ah yes, the PMC. Load of rubbish.
If you can break your opponent's cardboard and your cardboard can pass their MCs, you are winning.

 

[Tankleader]

Hello All,
IMHO, in a board game such as ASL or anyother military board game where chance is involved (dice) it is important to understand the rules, these dictate what you can or can't do, forcing you to adjust your tactics, as I have learned real world tactics only apply to a certain point then rules and then lady luck (dice) take over.

Semper FI
Andy