Surrender during the RtPh

BraveDave

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A Russian 458 is in CC with a concealed Romanian 247. During the Romanian DFPh an adjacent 447+MMG with a 9-1 fires into the CC breaking the 458 and unconcealing the 247. Regardless of which direction the broken 458 routes it will enter open ground and suffer interdiction. Therefore, in accordance with A20.21 it must surrender to the 247.

My opponent thinks that part of A10.51 which says “...A routing unit may never move ADJACENT to a Known enemy unit, unless in doing so it is leaving that enemy unit's Location…” permits him to avoid surrender and route away.

Which is the correct interpretation of this situation?
 

Philippe D.

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I am not sure what happens when the concealed unit loses concealment: is this sufficient to turn the CC into a melee?

If in a melee, the broken units cannot rout away, they must Withdraw.

If not in a melee, they must rout or be eliminated for failure to rout. They may go to a location adjacent to an enemy unit currently in their own location, provided they don't end their RtPh there.

But then, if all potential rout hexes are open ground, and the enemy unit is not CX, it will interdict them everywhere, so if No Quarter is not in effect, they will surrender instead of routing.
 

Aavar

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You are right. Although the Romanian Dfire would not affect the concealed Romanian 247 since it is not in melee with the Russian 458
 

Swiftandsure

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A Russian 458 is in CC with a concealed Romanian 247. During the Romanian DFPh an adjacent 447+MMG with a 9-1 fires into the CC breaking the 458 and unconcealing the 247. Regardless of which direction the broken 458 routes it will enter open ground and suffer interdiction. Therefore, in accordance with A20.21 it must surrender to the 247.

My opponent thinks that part of A10.51 which says “...A routing unit may never move ADJACENT to a Known enemy unit, unless in doing so it is leaving that enemy unit's Location…” permits him to avoid surrender and route away.

Which is the correct interpretation of this situation?
The Russian 458 is not in Melee with the concealed Romanian (I don't think that "in CC" means something here).
The Russian (I presume it is a Russian, as we are during the Romanian DFPh) 447+MMG+9-1 firing at the Location with the 458 and concealed Romanian will only affect the Romanian 247 - the situation is not a Melee one, so no chance the 458 can be broken by friendly fire.

Now, let us suppose that another set of circumstances lead to have the Russian 458 becoming broken (e.g. a 1 Sniper attack) in the same Location with an inconcealed Romanian 247 - no Melee exists yet.
If the only ADJACENT Locations the 458 could rout out of its Location are Open Ground, it surrenders to the 247.
The fact that a unit (not held in Melee) may rout out of an enemy Location has no bearing on the conditions of surrender.
 

BraveDave

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Thanks for your replies.

Missed the fact that concealed 247 would not be affected by friendly fire when the 9-1, 447+MMG fired into the hex because the units are not in melee. The comment about loss of concealment turning the CC into a melee led me to A11.15 which states

[EXC: Any unit which retains its concealment (A11.19) is not locked in Melee itself nor can it hold opposing units in Melee. It is free to fire in its next Fire Phase (into the Melee at TPBF; 7.212) or leave the Location in its next MPh/APh. Therefore, a concealed unit may wish to decline its CC attack opportunity in an effort to save its concealment. Upon losing its "?" such a unit in a Melee Location is immediately held in Melee].

I also found the following relevant Q&As:

Broken units in Melee are not subject to possible surrender per A20.21.

A broken unit is locked in Melee while an unbroken and armed Known enemy unit is ADJACENT to it or in its Location. Is it eliminated for Failure to Rout during the RtPh? Does it survive until the CCPh where it must attempt withdrawal?

A: No. Yes. [Compil3]

Therefore, once the 458 is broken the 247 could unconceal itself, immediately go into melee and attack the now withdrawing broken 458.
 

MajorDomo

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If a Melee does not exist in the location, when the 247 unconceals, it does not cause a Melee to occur until after the CCPh.

So the broken 458 may rout if otherwise allowed to rout.

Rich
 

BraveDave

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If a Melee does not exist in the location, when the 247 unconceals, it does not cause a Melee to occur until after the CCPh.

So the broken 458 may rout if otherwise allowed to rout.

Rich
So the 458 must surrender since it cannot route without being interdicted?
 

jrv

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So the 458 must surrender since it cannot route without being interdicted?
Yes. It can leave the 2-4-7's location if it is not otherwise blocked. If it can't rout in some/all directions due to enemy units outside its location or prohibited terrain (e.g. blaze, cliff, etc) and/or it would face interdiction if it did rout in those directions, it will surrender. Unless, of course, no quarter is in effect in which case it will rout away if there is a route where it will risk interdiction (it can't low crawl because it would end the RtPh adjacent to the 2-4-7), or it will be eliminated if it can't legally rout in any direction.

JR
 

Swiftandsure

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Missed the fact that concealed 247 would not be affected by friendly fire when the 9-1, 447+MMG fired into the hex because the units are not in melee.
I don't grasp the situation.
Which nationality are the 9-1,447+MG?
As you stated that it was firing during the Romanian DFPh, I presumed that they were Russian* (as only the Defender fires during a friendly DFPh).
If they are Russian, they will affect the concealed 247 and not the Russian 458.

*The possible confusion comes from the fact that both Russians and Romanians have 447 squads (1st Line and Elite, respectively).
 

Philippe D.

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The point is that since no Melee exists, fire into the CC hex would not affect both the squad that needs to break, and the HS that needs to lose concealment (unless Area Fire). But it can happen - both sides can fire during the turn, or some mortar can fire into the hex.
 

Swiftandsure

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I underlined the point - even giving an example which could lead to the situation (i.e. a sniper attack).
But, as much as the detailed situation was not necessary to ask the question (it simply could have asked what happens if a broken unit starts RtPh in the same Location with an unbroken enemy unit, with ADJACENT Location which all are Open Ground), I am interested in the nature of the details given - especially as there was an initial confusion between opposing units being in the same Location and a Melee situation.
 

Sully

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What rules states the friendly/concealed unit is excepted when firing into CC?

The point is that since no Melee exists, fire into the CC hex would not affect both the squad that needs to break, and the HS that needs to lose concealment
 

klasmalmstrom

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What rules states the friendly/concealed unit is excepted when firing into CC?
On can't really fire "into CC" - as that is not a state. But if the friendly units are not in Melee, they are usually unaffected by friendly incoming fire.
The rule is A7.4.
 

Eagle4ty

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On can't really fire "into CC" - as that is not a state. But if the friendly units are not in Melee, they are usually unaffected by friendly incoming fire.
The rule is A7.4.
ergo, if a concealed unit would still be in a Melee Location it would not be IN Melee and therefore exempt from any friendly fire directed at the Location [EXC: OBA, Area Target Type, etc.].
 

jrv

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ergo, if a concealed unit would still be in a Melee Location it would not be IN Melee and therefore exempt from any friendly fire directed at the Location [EXC: OBA, Area Target Type, etc.].
This also applies to other units that are not held in Melee. For instance friendly "unbroken" vehicle, bicyclist, skiers, and Cavalry also hold enemy infantry in melee, but are not held in melee themselves. These units are immune to friendly fire, even if there is also some friendly, unconcealed infantry in the hex that *is* held in melee. Only the enemy infantry and just that friendly infantry that is held in melee would be affected by friendly fire.

So the first thing the sergeant should check as the squad prepares for melee, "is everyone on his bicycle?"

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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IIRC, cyclist and Cavalry are "held in Melee" - but not "locked in Melee". NRBH, but I seem to recall there being a difference between e.g., an AFV and Cavalry in this regard.
 

jrv

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IIRC, cyclist and Cavalry are "held in Melee" - but not "locked in Melee".
My reading is that "held" and "locked" are intended to be synonymous. I would be interested to understand what the difference is. Are there separate "Melee (held)" vs "Melee (locked)" counters? In particular is there a difference between the two with regard to being marked with a Melee counter and being able to perform other actions (e.g. SW recovery, Prep Fire, Move, Advance)? Are you saying that Skiers & Bicyclists are not locked in melee by enemy infantry, but are held in melee by enemy vehicles, cavalry, etc? So if a cyclist squad were in a location with an enemy foot squad and a stopped enemy AFV, it would be held in melee but if that enemy AFV started up, the cyclist squad would be released from Melee while the enemy foot squad would not?

JR
 

Eagle4ty

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I always hated the interpretation of not being "held" in Melee meant that the unit had never been in Melee (Melee (a condition existing between opposing Known enemy units occupying the same Location after being attacked in CC): ...) as opposed to being able to freely leave Melee (i.e. locked in melee?). I believe JR has hit on something that "held" and "locked" are NOT synonymous. If one reads further to 11.71; how could a unit(s) [e.g. Cavalry, cyclists, skiers, and Passengers/Riders of Mobile vehicles who survive their initial round of CC are not required to remain in Melee.] leave a state of which they were never in, in the first place? If that statement of 11.71 is to be true, it must also be true that they have been IN a state of Melee prior to them being able to leave it. Confusing and frustrating (to me at least) to discern as given. JMHO.
 
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