Surrender and Routing Out of a Foxhole.

Tim Niesen

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#1
Just want to know if we have been playing this correctly. Several months ago, there was a discussion here concerning an exception in rout phase where routing units out of a foxhole could be combined with the movement costs of an Adjacent hex. Yesterday I interpreted this as preventing forced surrender of broken units in foxholes if good order enemy units were Adjacent to them and there was no enemy LOS to hex that broken unit routed out of foxhole into. (I am not sure if LOS is relevent here, however.) Tim
 

Tim Niesen

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#2
Although in the actual situation in the game the broken units were exiting from a pillbox.
 

klasmalmstrom

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#3
A broken unit is not forced to rout out of a Pillbox. But if they do so (and there is no tunnel, bunker involved), the cost for exiting the Pillbox into the same hex can't be combined with the cost to enter the next Location.
 

Tim Niesen

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#4
But if it would have been a foxhole, would in that situation the Romanian units been forced to surrender? Tim
 

jrv

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#5
But if it would have been a foxhole, would in that situation the Romanian units been forced to surrender? Tim
Not for routing out of the foxhole per se. It would not be interdictable in the adjacent hex. But if, say, the next hex were open ground and there was no entrenchment, it would surrender because of the interdiction in the next hex.

JR
 

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#6
The Adjacent hex was open ground and not Adjacent to the good order units, one pf which had used his FT to break the pillbox units. No LOS existed between the Adjacent units in the woods and the open ground hex. Tim
 

Tim Niesen

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#7
JR, I am asking if this pillbox had been a foxhole, or say if the pillbox had been a bunker, with both pillbox and trench. Tim
 

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#8
The Adjacent hex was open ground and not Adjacent to the good order units, one pf which had used his FT to break the pillbox units. No LOS existed between the Adjacent units in the woods and the open ground hex. Tim
If the brokie would be interdicted in the hex it entered after leaving the entrenchment, and no other rout path existed, it would surrender.
 

Swiftandsure

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#9
JR, I am asking if this pillbox had been a foxhole, or say if the pillbox had been a bunker, with both pillbox and trench. Tim
A bunker is a pillbox with a Trench in its hex or an adjacent one.
So a unit in a bunker is never forced to rout.
 

Tim Niesen

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#12
Thanks, Leading a horse to water. I never knew that a bunker's trench could be anywhere else than the same hex. Would this be two trenches, one of which is in the same hex as the pillbox, and an Adjacent trench? Or just one in an Adjacent hex? Makes sense. Reminds me of the bunkers in the two Normandy movies that come to mind. Tim
 

Tim Niesen

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#13
Okay, not sure, Robin, that I understand unless I was correct in that a routing unit out of a trench or foxhole into a open ground hex which is not interdictable (ie., out of LOS of enemy units capable of interdiction) can rout to cover. Tim
 

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#14
So if broken unit in a pillbox do not automatically surrender, your only option is to either to kill then in CC or to attempt to capture them in CC? Tim
 

jrv

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#15
So if broken unit in a pillbox do not automatically surrender, your only option is to either to kill then in CC or to attempt to capture them in CC? Tim
You can fire on them, either from in-hex/NCA with an appropriate weapon (e.g. DC, FT, Baz, etc) or from the CA with just about any weapon. You can attack them with CC. The one thing you can't do is make them die for failure to rout.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

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#16
Jr, Well Don has wanted to set a DC or two on this pillbox since turn one. That is the solution in turn four. Tim
 

Swiftandsure

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#17
Thanks, Leading a horse to water. I never knew that a bunker's trench could be anywhere else than the same hex. Would this be two trenches, one of which is in the same hex as the pillbox, and an Adjacent trench? Or just one in an Adjacent hex? Makes sense. Reminds me of the bunkers in the two Normandy movies that come to mind. Tim
The Index is your friend to find rule topics.
Here is the definition of a bunker, which answers your question clearly :
B30.8 BUNKERS: A Pillbox counter in the same hex with a trench and/or in a hex Accessible to a Trench counter's hex is considered a bunker.
 

Tim Niesen

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#18
Robin, But are the two situations in the Bunker complex different? With the trench in the Adjacent hex instead of the same hex, can the units still advance/or move in and out of the pillbox outside of LOS of the enemy? The type of bunker with the Adjacent trench would seem to require first a move from same hex pillbox to outside the pillbox and then from outside of the pillbox to the adjacent hex trench. Perhaps this is all an abstraction. Tim
 

klasmalmstrom

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#19
Robin, But are the two situations in the Bunker complex different? With the trench in the Adjacent hex instead of the same hex, can the units still advance/or move in and out of the pillbox outside of LOS of the enemy?
LOS is not a factor.

The type of bunker with the Adjacent trench would seem to require first a move from same hex pillbox to outside the pillbox and then from outside of the pillbox to the adjacent hex trench.
No. Movement from inside a Pillbox with an adjacent trench (i.e., a pillbox that is bunker) is done "as if the bunker were also a trench".

30.8 BUNKERS: A Pillbox counter in the same hex with a trench and/or in a hex Accessible to a Trench counter’s hex is considered a bunker. A bunker is treated as a pillbox in all respects except that a unit may move/rout/advance/Withdraw-from-CC between a bunker and such a trench as if the bunker were also a trench [EXC: the entry/exit restrictions given in 30.42, 30.44 and 30.6 still apply].
 
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