Sunken Rooads ~~~ take me hoome, to the place ~~~ where I Beloonnngg!

[hongkongwargamer]

Folks .. between W7 to V6 .. can a unit just go to the building in V6 from W7 without paying MFs for going up and down again because of the sunken road?

 

[Binchois]

I believe so. As a depression hex, a unit in W7 is considered to be at Level 0. To enter V6, there is no crossing of a higher level hexside, so the movement is entirely at Level 0:

B4.41 There is no cost for leaving a Sunken Road hex other than the normal penalties (10.4) for moving to higher elevation.​

Just 2MF to enter the building in V6 from W7.

 

[buser333]

I do not believe so. Per B4.4 movement across a non-road hexside pay additional penalties.
Edit: Actually upon re-reading that I do believe Binchois is correct.

 

[Binchois]

I do not believe so. Per B4.4 movement across a non-road hexside pay additional penalties.

4.4 speaks of entering not exiting:

B4.4 Movement costs across a Sunken Road hexside are identical to those for other roads. Only the entrance costs of a Sunken Road hex through a non-road hexside differ.​

There is an additional restriction for vehicles as per B4.42:

B4.42 Vehicles may not enter or leave a Sunken Road hex except across a road hexside.​

But I do not see any statement that Infantry movement is effected when the movement doesn't result in an elevation change (even though moving somewhat "off-road"). I admit that your point hits the crux of the problem.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Looks like an Abrupt Elevation change to me.

 

[Binchois]

Looks like an Abrupt Elevation change to me.

It's hard to doubt you, Klas, but none of the examples for Abrupt Elevation Changes show a case when both Locations plus the hexside exist at the same level with no elevation change between them. Your answer is definitely the possible intent here, but how to ignore the second sentence of B4.4 for Infantry?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

..but how to ignore the second sentence of B4.4 for Infantry?

NRBH, sitting on a bus at the moment.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I also think that there is an abrupt elevation change.
No road hexside is being crossed, btw.
See B19.4 example : even though movement is between two -1 level Locations, the intermediate level MF must be spent - and the EX speaks of A10.51 Abrupt Elevation change rule). It is about Gullies, but the phenomenon is identical when moving from IN a sunken road to a non road hexside connected adjacent hex.

 

[Binchois]

I also think that there is an abrupt elevation change.
No road hexside is being crossed, btw.
See B19.4 example : even though movement is between two -1 level Locations, the intermediate level MF must be spent - and the EX speaks of A10.51 Abrupt Elevation change rule). It is about Gullies, but the phenomenon is identical when moving from IN a sunken road to a non road hexside connected adjacent hex.

I do see the reasoning both you and Klas are using. And you definitely have me waffling in my opinion... I'll still repeat that none of the examples you gave (B19.4) nor any of the examples given under the Abrupt Elevation Change rule (10.5) show a case where both Locations and the entire hexside all exist at the same level.

In addition, the Sunken Road rules do leave some ambiguity:

B4.4 Movement costs across a Sunken Road hexside are identical to those for other roads. Only the entrance costs of a Sunken Road hex through a non-road hexside differ.​

​

B4.41 Infantry/Cavalry entering a Sunken Road hex through a non-road hexside do so at a cost of two MF. There is no cost for leaving a Sunken Road hex other than the normal penalties (10.4) for moving to higher elevation.​

​

As I stated above, 4.4 refers only to entering the sunken road hex and the second sentence of 4.41 only discusses cases when exiting to a higher elevation (wherein lies the ambiguity).

But in the end, I would probably feel different if the hill's crest in W7 was drawn to bulge outwards, more-completely running along the V6/W7 hexside. And with that image in mind, I am now doubting my previous post. I can't help suspecting that the board's designer had my interpretation in mind for this particular hexside, but perhaps Perry should be asked just to have an official verdict on record...

 

[jrv]

The unit is leaving the sunken road through a non-road hexside. Although the artwork suggests that there is no "hill" across the W7/V7 hexside, there is, which makes for an intermediate level, as Klas says. If there were not a higher-level hexside there based on the artwork, how much higher-level artwork across the w7/v7 hexside would be necessary to make you believe there was an intermediate level: an eight-inch? a quarter-inch? The entire hexside? Would your opponent agree, and how would you convince him?

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The unit is leaving the sunken road through a non-road hexside. Although the artwork suggests that there is no "hill" across the W7/V7 hexside, there is, which makes for an intermediate level, as Klas says. If there were not a higher-level hexside there based on the artwork, how much higher-level artwork across the w7/v7 hexside would be necessary to make you believe there was an intermediate level: an eight-inch? a quarter-inch? The entire hexside? Would your opponent agree, and how would you convince him?

Yes, pretty much what JR wrote.

 

[Ric of The LBC]

The unit is leaving the sunken road through a non-road hexside. Although the artwork suggests that there is no "hill" across the W7/V7 hexside, there is, which makes for an intermediate level, as Klas says. If there were not a higher-level hexside there based on the artwork, how much higher-level artwork across the w7/v7 hexside would be necessary to make you believe there was an intermediate level: an eight-inch? a quarter-inch? The entire hexside? Would your opponent agree, and how would you convince him?

JR

you have to go up to go down and that will leave you at the same level where you started.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I am with Klas and jrv on that one.

 

[jrv]

There are a couple of places where the artwork suggests that there isn't a hill on a non-depression hexside. Board 55 across the J6/I6 hexside has to have an intermediate level and no LOS between the two hexes unless the unit in J6 is in crest for similar reasons.



As a bonus, consider 66FF5. Which hexes have LOS and can be entered from by road? FF4, obviously, but what about GG5 & GG6?



JR

 

[Crustav]

You guys make my brain hurt. But i think I might have learned something.

 

[von Marwitz]

Looks like an Abrupt Elevation change to me.

I believe this, too. There is no way that the unit in W7 can bypass the W7/W6 hexside nor the W7/V6 hexside. And if it moves "straight" from W7 to V6, than it has to be up the sunkenroad and down again.

So if a unit wants to spend as few MF as possible, it would have to move from W7 to W6 and then into V6 (whereas I bet that W6 is being covered by fire and thus the reason for the question...).

von Marwitz

 

[jrv]

The difficulty arises from the fact that sometimes artwork depiction is significant, and sometimes it is merely suggestive. If you are tracing LOS *through* a hex like 55J6 (say from I7 to K5), the artwork is significant. If the LOS is crosses level one depiction on both sides, J6 is an obstacle for that LOS and it is blocked. When tracing LOS INTO j6 the artwork is not significant. 55J6 is a depression hex, and there is only LOS INTO a depression hex from a higher elevation [A6.3] and/or across a depression hexside [B19.2] or a hill depression [B19.5]. In this case even if the LOS from 55J6 to 55I6 does not cross level one depiction, there is still no LOS INTO the depression. One wishes that the artwork helped here by adding a little curve around the gully toward that I6/J6 hexside, but even though it is missing there is no LOS INTO J6 across that hexside from same/lower levels.

JR

 

[BattleSchool]

What is the MF cost to move from W7 to V6?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

What is the MF cost to move from W7 to V6?

I think it is 4 MF.

 

[Eagle4ty]

I think it is 4 MF.

That has always been my take as well, but Binchois does have a point about the entry/exit requirements stated in the rules. It would be difficult for me to imagine that one circumstance would apply to entry & yet would not apply to movement in the opposite direction, but this is ASL & stranger rules have popped out now and again that defy logic.