Suicide Creek Central....

[jrv]

Re: Suicide Creek Scenarios and Pillboxes

A DC is set during play of a CG date. At the end of the CG date, what happens to it? Is it:

a) retained if in a setup area in step 4.7071, possibly as captured and remains on board (still set?) if not in a setup area?
b) remains set on board?
c) is eliminated?
d) other?

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Am I correct that there isn't an SSR defining Majority Squad Type for night scenarios in Suicide Creek? If so, am I correct that the rules fall back to E.4, which basically says the Majority Squad Type is the type of the majority of squads in the sides' Order of Battles? In Suicide Creek the Americans would have a Majority Squad Type of normal, while the Japanese would have a Majority Squad Type of stealthy unless they have had an ELR catastrophe. Is that right?

Seems correct to me.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Re: Suicide Creek Scenarios and Pillboxes

A DC is set during play of a CG date. At the end of the CG date, what happens to it? Is it:

a) retained if in a setup area in step 4.7071, possibly as captured and remains on board (still set?) if not in a setup area?
b) remains set on board?
c) is eliminated?
d) other?

It could be eliminated if Setting it is counted as usage.

4.71426. DC: Neither side may retain a DC after its usage.

 

[jrv]

Re: Suicide Creek Scenarios and Pillboxes

It could be eliminated if Setting it is counted as usage.

4.71426. DC: Neither side may retain a DC after its usage.

I wouldn't think that setting counts as usage. It's still on the map at the end of the game. I would think that blowing up counts as usage.

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Re: Suicide Creek Scenarios and Pillboxes

I wouldn't think that setting counts as usage. It's still on the map at the end of the game. I would think that blowing up counts as usage.

I could see Setting it as usage as well. Think this one might need to go to MMP for a Q&A.

 

[jrv]

The unit below is in no-man's land at game end (no-man's land indicated by yellow). Per the escape chart it must escape. Assuming it survives the escape DR, by 4.7061, it must trace a path "of contiguous, Enterable, Uncontrolled-Territory/enemy-Setup-Area Locations." Since the only paths it can trace are through no-man's land, it cannot create a 4.7061 path. Is it eliminated?

View attachment 53845

JR

 

[jrv]

Re: Suicide Creek Scenarios and Pillboxes

In the illustrated situation (red for Japanese setup area, green for American setup area, yellow for no-man's land, blue for uncontrolled territory, and white for unknown type) the hexes I show as "unknown type" cannot be uncontrolled territory (by Z4.2 Uncontrolled Territory, which states that all uncontrolled territory is ≥ three hexes from a controlled strategic locations), they can't be setup area (by Z4.2 Setup Area, which states that all non-ford stream hexes are never part of a setup area), and they aren't no-man's land (they aren't within two hexes of an American strategic location). By 4.7052, if a path can't be traced through "contiguous, Enterable, Uncontrolled-Territory/friendly-Setup-Area Locations to an Eligible Entry Area," that Setup Area is isolated.

Is the Japanese Setup Area north of the stream (around W11) isolated?

If it is isolated, per 4.7061 any escape has to be done through a path of "Uncontrolled Territory/enemy-Setup Area Locations." Can a unit north of the stream escape through hexes V11, W12, & X12?

If it is not isolated, per 4.713 units may shift through paths of "Uncontrolled Territory/friendly-Setup-Area/Eligible-Entry-Area hexes." May units in the Japanese Setup Area north of the stream shift through hexes V11, W12, & X12?

Since the stream hex X12 is not friendly setup area and does not seem to be one of the types listed on the "not in friendly setup area" chart after 4.7056, there isn't any rule on what happens to a unit that ends the scenario in that hex. If a unit ends the scenario in X12, is it retained in an adjacent setup area? Is it required to escape? Can it optionally escape? Can it remain in that hex for the next CG date?

View attachment 53850

JR

 

[jrv]

Re: Suicide Creek Scenarios and Pillboxes

According to Z4.2 (Strategic Location), jungle-debris and stream-jungle hexes are strategic locations. According to SC3.1, stream-jungle debris is treated as jungle-debris except as stated otherwise. That seems to make them strategic locations as well.

Q1: are stream-jungle debris hexes strategic locations?



In the illustrated situation (yellow for no-man's land, white for unknown type) the hexes I show as "unknown type" cannot be uncontrolled territory nor no-man's land as they are strategic locations, nor are they part of Setup Areas per Z4.2 (Strategic Location). By 4.7052, if a path can't be traced through "contiguous, Enterable, Uncontrolled-Territory/friendly-Setup-Area Locations to an Eligible Entry Area," that Setup Area is isolated.

Is Setup Area N11 isolated?

If it is isolated, per 4.7061 any escape has to be done through a path of "Uncontrolled Territory/enemy-Setup Area Locations." M12 is not a friendly setup area, and N12/O13 are not enemy-Setup Areas. Can Japanese escape through M12 (or N12)?

If it is not isolated, per 4.713 units may shift through paths of "Uncontrolled Territory/friendly-Setup-Area/Eligible-Entry-Area hexes." May units in the Japanese Setup Area north of the stream shift through hex M12?

Since the stream hex M12 is not friendly setup area and does not seem to be one of the types listed on the "not in friendly setup area" chart after 4.7056, there isn't any rule on what happens to a unit that ends the scenario in that hex. If a unit ends the scenario in M12, is it retained in an adjacent setup area? Is it required to escape? Can it optionally escape? Can it remain in that hex for the next CG date?

Assuming there is an American unit south of the stream that needs to escape, can it escape through Japanese-controlled jungle-stream or jungle-debris-stream hexes? Can American units shift through such hexes?

View attachment 53852

JR

 

[jrv]

Re: Suicide Creek Scenarios and Pillboxes

This Q&A is important for SC: http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?127515-DCs-Area-Fire-and-Fire

There should be many blind or relatively blind hexes in the creek from which the Americans can place DCs to clear wire at the creek's edge.

JR

 

[Philippe D.]

This thread, even though mostly inactive, seems to be the perfect place to ask my questions about the SC CG

I get it that only "I" RGs can be bought in Reserve, but can they be if they are normally available for on-map setup (note "a")?

Also, in the initial scenario, SSR I-2 allows Japanese RGs ton setup on-map at no extra cost - I assume this does not apply to those RGs explicitly bought as Reserves?

And, as another question (I think I've seen it asked in another form here, but didn't see a clear answer): if a Pillbox is still HIP in terrain that is otherwise not a Strategic Location, how does it affect Setup Area determination? (my take would be that the Japanese must reveal it to benefit from its effect on Setup Area determination, but if there's a different answer...)

 

[jrv]

It's inactive until someone plays the CG again. I don't think there's any reason you couldn't purchase an RG in reserve even though it is available for on-map setup. NRBH, however; if you had let me know you were planning to play it I would have thrown my SC rules in my suitcase. Note that that restrictions on reserve setup usually means the Japanese can't use it near the creek after the first day.

JR

 

[Philippe D.]

The Reserve setup conditions are pretty steep, 6 hexes from enemy setup area and at least 4 from stream hexes. There's a grand total of one hex south of the stream that satisfies the second condition and that has any kind of LOS to the north bank.

Thing is, I've seen it said here that for the first CG date, Reserves can be setup among the <= 6 squad-equivalents north of the stream. I know that Reserves in there are in a very dangerous position, but I'm looking for ways to play with my opponent's mind.

Also, just as a check: since the US are not onboard at CG start, all Strategic Locations are under Japanese control initially, right? (as per A26.11) If I get things correctly, the US player needs to move through all of these Locations on the north bank to "purge" Japanese control, right? (if they don't, and all US troops are too far south, it doesn't take a huge number of HIP troops, and potentially only one Foxhole, to create a Japanese Setup Area all the way from the East edge to the West, potentially isolating the whole US force)

 

[jrv]

As a general rule, I think you should be avoiding places with a LOS to the north bank as much as possible. The fundamental problem the Japanese need to overcome is that the Americans can set up kill stacks that will obliterate any Japanese they see. Even pillboxes are not proof against the American large kill stacks with leadership.

If you do put reserves on the north side of the stream, let us know how it worked out. I can't see any way it could go well, but I would love to learn I am wrong. As I recollect the Japanese are pretty thin the first day, so trying to get a group in reserve with the restrictions seemed pretty unlikely.

As far as I understand the Japanese control the whole board initially. Even if they did not, the hexes are not American-controlled, so the Americans have to move through them all anyway.

JR

 

[Philippe D.]

I am getting ready to play J133 "One Miserable Night", where there is a pre-game Bombardment which only affects a Harrassing Fire zone (2 hex radius, right?).

I want to make sure I get the SSR right: the AR is automatically inaccurate, and drifts by a full dr in distance, right? SSR says "and makes a C1.31 Direction/Extent-of-Error DR"

 

[Paul John]

Hello all, We have just started the CG and have a few questions about the pillbox cellars. (First, is there a way to search these threads? I can't figure that out and would potentially save me asking you to re-invent the wobbly wheel.)
1. I assume from B30.7 that a unit can gain concealment in a pillbox ("A pillbox location is concealment terrain"), but once the pillbox is on board, they are generally considered known (LOS w/in 16 hexes) and there isn't any benefit of concealment to incoming fire. But do those units stay concealed unless lost by some other action as normal?
I wonder as the unit might want to leave the pillbox or it might be relevant for ambush in CC.
2. Now to the cellars. Since a unit is out of LOS to all except a unit in the pillbox, can it gain concealment if in a pillbox cellar and pillbox is in enemy LOS (MMC is not)?
3. Is ambush possible if one unit advances into the pillbox and another is in the pillbox cellar?

I don't think any of this will save me, but ...curiosity.

 

[jrv]

Searching can be done internally to gamesquad, but I generally prefer using outside search engines such as google. To search with google put in your search terms plus "site:gamesquad.com" (with no quotes) in the search box.

1) Concealment loss in a pillbox is no different than concealment loss elsewhere. The fact that a pillbox is concealment terrain is not what allows the unit to gain concealment; concealment can be gained in non-concealment terrain. The biggest impact of being concealment terrain is that a Gun set up HIP inside a pill will remain HIP even when an enemy unit has LOS, i.e. it will not be put on board concealed. It also allows dummies to be placed inside the pillbox and grants free concealment per CG9, and an unconcealed unit does not make a concealment dr to gain concealment.

When setting up the Japanese will probably use a mix of real units, dummies and HIP units in the pillbox and/or on top of it and/or in its cellar. The idea is to make the Marines so twitchy that they fire at everything first. If they start doing that, leave everything out of LOS (you might put up a dummy or two) and let the Marines waste their time & inflict Snipers on themselves. When you see their attention span starting to waver, start putting real units and HIP units in again.
2) Correct. The only LOS to/from the cellar is from the pillbox. If there is no enemy unit in the pillbox, a unit in the cellar gains concealment automatically.
3) Yes assuming one/both is concealed, just as when a friendly unit is outside a pillbox and an enemy unit is inside it. The two units will not be in jungle/kunai/etc, which will make a difference, and both will get the pillbox modifier.

JR

 

[Paul John]

Searching

Great tip! and thanks for the other info as well!

 

[jrv]

I suggest adopting this house rule: SC1.521 Enemy units in a SC Cellar are not revealed by Search [A12.152] if an enemy unit is also present in the non-cellar pillbox Location. A unit in a SC Cellar can only Search the non-cellar pillbox Location if the non-cellar pillbox Location is occupied by an enemy unit.

JR

 

[hayesncsu]

Question RE Isolated units/Setup Areas:

The way I read it if Marines are in A12/A13 (south of creek) but otherwise on north side of creek, this 2 hex Setup Area (both hexes have pillboxes FYI) is considered Isolated and therefore units would have to Escape to move out and new RG cannot Setup there? Can someone please confirm? This is because creek is not "Enterable" and thus cannot be traced through for "path" purposes. Thank you all!

 

[jrv]

Question RE Isolated units/Setup Areas:

The way I read it if Marines are in A12/A13 (south of creek) but otherwise on north side of creek, this 2 hex Setup Area (both hexes have pillboxes FYI) is considered Isolated and therefore units would have to Escape to move out and new RG cannot Setup there? Can someone please confirm? This is because creek is not "Enterable" and thus cannot be traced through for "path" purposes. Thank you all!

I am not sure why you say the creek is not "enterable": "Enerable: A hex/Location that the unit in question could enter (disregarding its occupation by a Fortification/enemy-unit) during a hypothetical MPh/APh" [SC4.2]. Since you entered the stream during the game I don't see how you can conclude it's not enterable.

Is hex A11 no-man's land or uncontrolled territory? If it is uncontrolled territory, you can trace a route of enterable, uncontrolled territory/no-man's land from the setup area to the north edge. The A12-A13 setup area would not be isolated in that case. If it is no-man's land then the setup area is isolated.

JR