Suicide Creek Central....

[zgrose]

I am sorry this question doesn't make any sense to me. Can you reword it?

Q: In this image, P12 and Q13 *are* Isolated by the fact that they can't trace through Uncontrolled Territory (NML hexes are not Uncontrolled).

Essentially the same question as before but with NML instead of non-Enterable terrain.

 

[zgrose]

You have to create some strategic locations to make the setup area extend to the board edge. (foxholes usually).

The other question didn't make sense to me.

This one? "(addon) When figuring No-Man's Land, are they actually overlapping Setup Areas or just distance? For instance, O12 is not Enterable to the Japanese but is within 2 hexes of Strategic Locations on both sides."

From Z4.2
Setup Area: Each Strategic Location Controlled by a side, plus each non-Strategic Location within two hexes of an enemy-Controlled Strategic Location (i.e., not a No-Man's Land hex; 4.7051). Each such non-Strategic Location hex must also be Enterable by Infantry from >= one Strategic Location of that Setup Area.

No-Man's Land: A non-Strategic Location within two hexes of both friendly- and enemy-Controlled Strategic Locations; 4.7051.

4.7051 says "As each side determines its Setup Area(s), there will be portions of the map where two opposing Setup Areas "overlap." A non-Strategic Location within two hexes of both friendly- and enemy-Controlled Strategic Locations is a No-Man's Land hex. ..."

To be in a Setup Area, it must be Enterable (and the stream hexes are not Enterable) so O12 isn't in any Japanese Setup Area. Therefore it isn't technically overlapping with the American Setup Area, but it is within 2 hexes of a Strategic Location. The definition of NML doesn't seem to require that the hex actually be in any Setup Area.

So does distance (within 2 hexes) trump being a hex within the Setup Area of both sides. The answer appears to be yes. One can create a NML hex even when one or both sides can't actually claim it as a part of a Setup Area.

 

[snave]

Q: In this image, P12 and Q13 *are* Isolated by the fact that they can't trace through Uncontrolled Territory (NML hexes are not Uncontrolled).

Essentially the same question as before but with NML instead of non-Enterable terrain.

I agree, they are isolated by no mans land.

 

[zgrose]

Thanks for the confirmations, snave. If anyone has any comment on post #242 I think that'll wrap it up for this RePh.

 

[snave]

This one? "(addon) When figuring No-Man's Land, are they actually overlapping Setup Areas or just distance? For instance, O12 is not Enterable to the Japanese but is within 2 hexes of Strategic Locations on both sides."

From Z4.2
Setup Area: Each Strategic Location Controlled by a side, plus each non-Strategic Location within two hexes of an enemy-Controlled Strategic Location (i.e., not a No-Man's Land hex; 4.7051). Each such non-Strategic Location hex must also be Enterable by Infantry from >= one Strategic Location of that Setup Area.

No-Man's Land: A non-Strategic Location within two hexes of both friendly- and enemy-Controlled Strategic Locations; 4.7051.

4.7051 says "As each side determines its Setup Area(s), there will be portions of the map where two opposing Setup Areas "overlap." A non-Strategic Location within two hexes of both friendly- and enemy-Controlled Strategic Locations is a No-Man's Land hex. ..."

To be in a Setup Area, it must be Enterable (and the stream hexes are not Enterable) so O12 isn't in any Japanese Setup Area. Therefore it isn't technically overlapping with the American Setup Area, but it is within 2 hexes of a Strategic Location. The definition of NML doesn't seem to require that the hex actually be in any Setup Area.

So does distance (within 2 hexes) trump being a hex within the Setup Area of both sides. The answer appears to be yes. One can create a NML hex even when one or both sides can't actually claim it as a part of a Setup Area.

OK, so you want to know if being non-enterable makes a hex a no mans land when it fulfills the other requirements. I don't remember the answer to this, but in our game all those creek hexes were uncontrolled territory, so, that is probably how it works.

 

[DougRim]

Just about to start the SC CG and want to be sure that we are understanding the pillbox rules properly.

I think it works this way,

Pillbox and CC
Unconcealed US unit MOVES into a concealment terrain hex containing a hidden pillbox.
1. The pillbox is revealed but not its contents.
2. The contents will be placed on board concealed during either (a) the Rout Phase if a US unit routs into the hex or (b) at the start of the CC Phase as per A11.19 and G.4, whichever comes first.
3. No CC is required. If the US player does not initiate it, the Japanese player can (in the US CCPh?)
4. Ambush is possible (Japanese will get -2 Concealed, -1 Stealthy, +2 Pillbox drm; US will get +1 ATTACKER in Jungle, Kunai, Bamboo (if US is in such terrain)
5. No HtH possible.


Pillbox and IFT
Unconcealed US unit MOVES into a concealment terrain hex containing a hidden pillbox.
5. The pillbox is revealed but not its contents.
6. The Japanese can DFF only if the US unit enters via the Pillbox CA.
7. Revealing a Japanese unit in the pillbox would not force the US unit back to its previous hex per A12.15 as they are not in the same location.
8. The US can AFPh (and continue to fire in subsequent fire phases) using PBF regardless of whether he entered via the Pillbox CA or not (and will use the CA or NCA modifier as appropriate). Any US fire versus concealed units in the pillbox is not halved for Concealment. The Japanese cannot fire at the US unit in subsequent fire phases; but can enter into CC with the US unit.

Pillbox and Wire
Unconcealed US unit MOVES into a concealment terrain hex containing a hidden pillbox and hidden wire.
9. The wire is revealed; pillbox is revealed but not its contents.
9. The US unit is placed above the wire and any fire or CC versus the pillbox would suffer the normal above-wire implications (+1 IFT, +1/-1 CC).
10. The US unit can move beneath the wire in the normal fashion.
11. Japanese fire options versus the US unit on or beneath the wire are the same as in 6 and 8.

Please let me know if anything above is wrong. For simplicity's sake, I have not added all rule references.

Thanks

Doug

 

[jrv]

Just about to start the SC CG and want to be sure that we are understanding the pillbox rules properly.

I think it works this way,

Pillbox and CC
Unconcealed US unit MOVES into a concealment terrain hex containing a hidden pillbox.
1. The pillbox is revealed but not its contents.
2. The contents will be placed on board concealed during either (a) the Rout Phase if a US unit routs into the hex or (b) at the start of the CC Phase as per A11.19 and G.4, whichever comes first.
3. No CC is required. If the US player does not initiate it, the Japanese player can (in the US CCPh?)
4. Ambush is possible (Japanese will get -2 Concealed, -1 Stealthy, +2 Pillbox drm; US will get +1 ATTACKER in Jungle, Kunai, Bamboo (if US is in such terrain)
5. No HtH possible.


Pillbox and IFT
Unconcealed US unit MOVES into a concealment terrain hex containing a hidden pillbox.
5. The pillbox is revealed but not its contents.
6. The Japanese can DFF only if the US unit enters via the Pillbox CA.
7. Revealing a Japanese unit in the pillbox would not force the US unit back to its previous hex per A12.15 as they are not in the same location.
8. The US can AFPh (and continue to fire in subsequent fire phases) using PBF regardless of whether he entered via the Pillbox CA or not (and will use the CA or NCA modifier as appropriate). Any US fire versus concealed units in the pillbox is not halved for Concealment. The Japanese cannot fire at the US unit in subsequent fire phases; but can enter into CC with the US unit.

Pillbox and Wire
Unconcealed US unit MOVES into a concealment terrain hex containing a hidden pillbox and hidden wire.
9. The wire is revealed; pillbox is revealed but not its contents.
9. The US unit is placed above the wire and any fire or CC versus the pillbox would suffer the normal above-wire implications (+1 IFT, +1/-1 CC).
10. The US unit can move beneath the wire in the normal fashion.
11. Japanese fire options versus the US unit on or beneath the wire are the same as in 6 and 8.

Regarding 8, the CA modifier is only used if the firing unit is in the CA of the pillbox. If the unit is IN the hex with the pillbox, the NCA is used, regardless of how the unit entered. Furthermore, pillboxes are immune to small arms & MG fire through the NCA [B30.113]. A pillbox can be attacked through the NCA only by ordnance, FT (paying TEM!), DC, Baz, & OBA. The only time that there is a small arms shot between a unit IN a pillbox and a unit IN that hex is DFF during the MPh as a unit enters the hex through the CA. BFF, for example, would use the NCA, even if the unit entered the hex through the CA.

JR

 

[DougRim]

Regarding 8, the CA modifier is only used if the firing unit is in the CA of the pillbox. If the unit is IN the hex with the pillbox, the NCA is used, regardless of how the unit entered. Furthermore, pillboxes are immune to small arms & MG fire through the NCA [B30.113]. A pillbox can be attacked through the NCA only by ordnance, FT (paying TEM!), DC, Baz, & OBA. The only time that there is a small arms shot between a unit IN a pillbox and a unit IN that hex is DFF during the MPh as a unit enters the hex through the CA. BFF, for example, would use the NCA, even if the unit entered the hex through the CA.

JR

Thanks for this. Too many rules for my poor brain to cope with. I had totally overlooked the B30.113 limitation re no Small Arms or MG fire through NCA.

 

[jrv]

Thanks for this. Too many rules for my poor brain to cope with. I had totally overlooked the B30.113 limitation re no Small Arms or MG fire through NCA.

If you are going to start Advancing in to hexes with HIP pillboxes, as defender I am going to start putting wire and sometimes HIP units on top of them. That will hurt. And if the Marines are advancing out of the creek, they will probably be CX too, making the CC attacks doubly painful.

The Marines should make sure they know what they are getting into when possible. That should include searching and recon by fire. Searching can result in search casualties, but it may be less than you would get from advancing into a surprise.

JR

 

[Cpl Uhl]

Patience and artillery when scouting out the HIP pillboxes. Searching especially requires patience, since the Japanese +2 drm will make many search attempts useless. Artillery is useful for flushing out the HIPsters outside the pillbox but in the hex.

Also if I were Japanese I'd have a boatload of FP in the hexes just behind the Pillbox line. Break the Marines on the wire with PBF, then out of the pillbox for CC or just let them die trying to get under the wire and out of the hex. (US artillery is useful against this tactic too - in fact only thing that is.)

Finally, remember there should be someone in the cellar and the Marines will have to go dig them out too...oh, what fun!

 

[jrv]

Also if I were Japanese I'd have a boatload of FP in the hexes just behind the Pillbox line. Break the Marines on the wire with PBF, then out of the pillbox for CC or just let them die trying to get under the wire and out of the hex. (US artillery is useful against this tactic too - in fact only thing that is.)

Good advice, but it's even better for the Japanese than this. If they manage to break the unit on top of the pillbox and there's someone IN the pillbox, both on top and adjacent in CA are considered ADJACENT [B30.6, B30.2]. Per A10.51, a broken unit ON the pillbox can't rout from on top into the CA of that same occupied pillbox because it would be moving from ADJACENT to ADJACENT. If there are Japanese behind the pillbox, the Americans probably can't rout to the side either, and the broken Americans on top of the pillbox will be eliminated for failure to rout even without wire.

The downside of coming out of the Pillbox with Wire on top is that even though the Advancing unit is IN the hex, it will be placed on top of the Wire.

JR

 

[von Marwitz]

Good advice, but it's even better for the Japanese than this. If they manage to break the unit on top of the pillbox and there's someone IN the pillbox, both on top and adjacent in CA are considered ADJACENT [B30.6, B30.2]. Per A10.51, a broken unit ON the pillbox can't rout from on top into the CA of that same occupied pillbox because it would be moving from ADJACENT to ADJACENT. If there are Japanese behind the pillbox, the Americans probably can't rout to the side either, and the broken Americans on top of the pillbox will be eliminated for failure to rout even without wire.

JR

That is a very good ploy worth of rep that I currently can't give which I need to add to my bag of tricks. Seems especially powerful if the Japanese defenders behind the pillbox are one level lower - probably can't be seen and hosed by superior US fire until ADJACENT to the 2nd line of defence but to get adjacent, they would need to survive PB fire from the pillbox and then from the units on a reverse slope.

Now imagine some mines and wire on the pillbox/bunker which is connected to a trench on the reverse slope... Evil!

von Marwitz

 

[DougRim]

That is a very good ploy worth of rep that I currently can't give which I need to add to my bag of tricks. Seems especially powerful if the Japanese defenders behind the pillbox are one level lower - probably can't be seen and hosed by superior US fire until ADJACENT to the 2nd line of defence but to get adjacent, they would need to survive PB fire from the pillbox and then from the units on a reverse slope.

Now imagine some mines and wire on the pillbox/bunker which is connected to a trench on the reverse slope... Evil!

von Marwitz

If only . . . that were the Suicide Creek scenario! . . . the last few post have contained great tips for a variety of situations, few of which are present in Suicide Creek. Yes, I can put wire on the pillboxes, and some HIP units behind some of the pillboxes. But there are no mines, no bunkers, no reverse slopes in Suicide Creek. Putting units in the cellars would be nice too if I had enough troops to go around but the Japanese are seriously outnumbered here. I don't have a boatload of anything!

Which is not to say that the tools I do have to work worth won't be enough. My opponent will have to work hard to get the pillboxes and I hope to make him pay too high a price.

. . . next step is to figure out what to do about his tanks.

Thanks for the rules correction and the tactical tips. All appreciated.

Doug

 

[jrv]

no reverse slopes in Suicide Creek.

The "reverse slope" principle can be applied even without a slope where the jungle goes down to the creek. So for instance a FG in S13 is effectively in reverse slope for a pillbox in S12. Not every pillbox position can be covered in that way, but many can.

JR

 

[pward]

I have to ask where you're getting so many squads to man the PB and setup these traps. Unless I misread the setup or CPP, there aren't that many IJA to go around in the CG.

 

[jrv]

I have to ask where you're getting so many squads to man the PB and setup these traps. Unless I misread the setup or CPP, there aren't that many IJA to go around in the CG.

You start with four platoons, 12 squads and a MG group. You can buy 12 pts, which my first thought is one platoon (3 squads) and the HMG. That's probably 14 squads for the first CG Date. The real fighting around the creek shouldn't start until the next day, which gives you two more CG dates to buy. It's not a whole lot of units, but it's a start.

JR

 

[DougRim]

Also- I believe that the ability of HIP units to avoid detection only applies to the movement phase. If he remains in your hex after the Advance phase I think he must be placed on board - DrDeath.


Correct. They will also be revealed if someone attempts to rout into their Location.

It would appear that A11.19 is the relevant rule here. But it applies to units in the same LOCATION. Which units inside/outside of a pillbox are not. I agree that the pillbox is revealed when a unit enters the hex as per E1.16 and that the contents are not revealed at time of hex entry. But I don't see why they would be put onboard at the start of CCPh as per A11.19? Is there another relevant rule that I am missing?

And when you say "rout into their Location" I assume you mean the pillbox location itself and not the hex containing the pillbox.

 

[pward]

You start with four platoons, 12 squads and a MG group. You can buy 12 pts, which my first thought is one platoon (3 squads) and the HMG. That's probably 14 squads for the first CG Date. The real fighting around the creek shouldn't start until the next day, which gives you two more CG dates to buy. It's not a whole lot of units, but it's a start.

JR

Not the way the CG played out in my version. USMC player (Jeff Ital) had a foothold on the left side of 1 hex, and was almost to the creek across most of the map after day 1 was over. The night dual attack was a waste for me, no take backs and I lost the PMC from the 24 to shots.

 

[jrv]

Not the way the CG played out in my version. USMC player (Jeff Ital) had a foothold on the left side of 1 hex, and was almost to the creek across most of the map after day 1 was over. The night dual attack was a waste for me, no take backs and I lost the PMC from the 24 to shots.

I would expect for the Marines to be at the creek the first day. As the Japanese I wouldn't want to have any units left on the north side because the creek divides the setup areas. I wouldn't expect any recovery of territory on the first night either, unless the Marines forced a bridgehead on the southern bank, and even then there are some areas that are going to be tough to counter-attack into, the west edge for instance. That still means that the Americans are not pushing over the creek in a big way until the beginning of the third CG date, as best I can tell.

FWIW I have not played this CG. I have only looked it over, and I do agree with you that it looks tough for the Japanese. ROAR has it 5-0 favoring the Americans too. I do like to look it over to see if the Japanese might be able to pull out the upset, and what tactics they might use to achieve that. The large firegroups that the Americans can form won't be helpful to the Japanese. Possible answers include remaining in the cellar in very threatened areas until the Americans cross, then firing reverse slope units to break them and moving up to force the elimination for failure to rout. Again I have not played this to see if it will work in real life.

JR

 

[jrv]

Am I correct that there isn't an SSR defining Majority Squad Type for night scenarios in Suicide Creek? If so, am I correct that the rules fall back to E.4, which basically says the Majority Squad Type is the type of the majority of squads in the sides' Order of Battles? In Suicide Creek the Americans would have a Majority Squad Type of normal, while the Japanese would have a Majority Squad Type of stealthy unless they have had an ELR catastrophe. Is that right?

JR