suggestions for introducing PTO to ASL players

igycrctl

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I agree. When I played it, the Chinese didn't even flirt with winning, either. The Chinese just broke and broke and never rallied (6 morale, IIRC). Not one of my more enjoyable ASL sessions (despite playing a good friend).
I guess different experiences. This was one of the first PTO scenarios I played and was able to hold on for a win against my more experienced opponent. I might have gotten lucky with the placement of the flames, but in the end it was hard for the Japanese to take the victory buildings in the allotted time.
 

djohannsen

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I guess different experiences.
Though blaming dice is the last refuge of the tactically inept, I think that I didn't rally a single unit during the entire playing. It was one of those days that combine my inept play with bad rolls at some key times to devastating effect.
 

jrv

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I guess different experiences. This was one of the first PTO scenarios I played and was able to hold on for a win against my more experienced opponent. I might have gotten lucky with the placement of the flames, but in the end it was hard for the Japanese to take the victory buildings in the allotted time.
I think there are two scenarios being discussed here. One is Shanghai in Flames, the other is Totsugeki. One has flames and buildings, the other not so much.

For Totsugeki I wrote a brief article on some tactics for the Chinese and Japanese: http://www.jrvdev.com/ROAR/Articles/Attacking a concealed line.pdf. Based on what I wrote, it looks like it was the Japanese that were having trouble.

JR
 

Eagle4ty

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I think there are two scenarios being discussed here. One is Shanghai in Flames, the other is Totsugeki. One has flames and buildings, the other not so much.

For Totsugeki I wrote a brief article on some tactics for the Chinese and Japanese: http://www.jrvdev.com/ROAR/Articles/Attacking a concealed line.pdf. Based on what I wrote, it looks like it was the Japanese that were having trouble.

JR
Both scenarios are pretty even, at least well within a margin of error. The newer iteration (RS) of each seems to favor the Chinese a little perhaps or be very close to dead even at least if one uses ROAR as a determiner I personally have found both scenarios to be a lot of fun (especially Shanghai In Flames) in both the newer and older versions.?
 

Martin Mayers

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I was forced last year to Playtest a scenario a couple of times called Final Crisis at Blackpool for a tournament in Blackpool over here. Created by Joe Leoce for Critical Hit.

I think I enjoyed that scenario more than any other PTO scenario I've ever played.

Fairly basic to rule, but tactically very deep. Brits v Japanese. Japs yomping up some mountainside against second line Indian troops until the British Gurkhas turn up to shore up the defence. Excellent scenario. Can't recommend it enough.
 

Glen

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Any well known starting scenarios w high fun factor?

/S
My just played my first PTO scenario, J76 Ultimate Treachery. Japanese vs French, only half a mapboard and 4.5 turns long. No banzai charges and the only PTO terrain is Palm Trees (which I believe represent the shortest rule section in ASL history.) And as a bonus, the French provide a decrepit tank for the Japanese to try out TH Heroes on.

Japan wins by occupying 45 (out of a possible 74) building locations. When I was setting up, I was thinking that it should be a pretty easy win for France (they were only slightly outnumbered, and troop quality was similar (split between 1 and 2nd line). As it turned out, Japan was able to encircle the entire French force and winning wasn't that hard.
 
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Martin Mayers

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My just played my first PTO scenario, J76 Ultimate Treachery. Japanese vs French, only half a mapboard and 4.5 turns long. No banzai charges and the only PTO terrain is Palm Trees (which I believe represent the shortest rule section in ASL history.) And as a bonus, the French provide a decrepit only tank for the Japanese to try out TH Heroes on).

Japan wins by occupying 45 (out of a possible 74) building locations. When I was setting up, I was thinking that is should be a pretty easy win for France (they were only slightly outnumbered, and troop quality was similar (split between 1 and 2nd line). As it turned out, Japan was able to encircle the entire French force and winning wasn't that hard.
It doesn't take long, playing PTO, to realise that when the Japanese side wants to get to a particular place they usually will get to it. Might not have much left when they reach it of course, but they'll usually reach it :D
 

Ed Donoghue

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I was forced last year to Playtest a scenario a couple of times called Final Crisis at Blackpool for a tournament in Blackpool over here. Created by Joe Leoce for Critical Hit.

I think I enjoyed that scenario more than any other PTO scenario I've ever played.

Fairly basic to rule, but tactically very deep. Brits v Japanese. Japs yomping up some mountainside against second line Indian troops until the British Gurkhas turn up to shore up the defence. Excellent scenario. Can't recommend it enough.
Looks very interesting, this gets added to the short list of PTO scenarios that I want to eventually play. Thanks
 

Martin Mayers

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I'm a big fan of "Melee Near the Coast" or "800 Heroes". myself :)
Played Melee Near the Coast three times in tournaments. A blast every time.

In fact I'd have to say, and perhaps it's the manner in which the rules work out...perhaps inadvertently helping balance scenarios or some such, that I find PTO scenarios far more consistently good than ETO ones. I can't think of very many PTO scenarios at all that haven't lit my fire.
 

jrv

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What role does the Japanese starter kit play in this situation?
Isn't it supposed to be the introduction to PTO?
An introduction to PTO in Starter Kit. An ASL player has to "unlearn" a boatload of rules from standard ASL to play starter kit. It could be done but if their goal is to learn PTO in ASL proper and the players are not already familiar with SK, it would add another layer of complexity to their chore. And then once they learned PTO in SK, they would then have to learn the differences the other way.

My suggestion for a "stepped" introduction would be to play Japanese without PTO first to get a feel for how the Japanese Nationality works, then move on to infantry-only PTO, then add vehicles. My suggestion for the best way to learn PTO is to play Bloody Red Beach over and over again.

And really, what is PTO without a sniper? It's nearly Chutes and Ladders.

JR
 

witchbottles

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What role does the Japanese starter kit play in this situation?
Isn't it supposed to be the introduction to PTO?
I would think ASLSK4 PTO really holds the same place in the ASL genre of games that ASKSK 2 and 3, and the DaE HASLSK do. To provide a lower-cost alternative that is easy to learn, carry and on the pocketbook, allowing those wishing to try,learn or play ASL but daunted at the initial buy-in costs for the full ASL game, the massive outlay of costs to expand into all of the ASLRB, and extreme complexity of the ASLRB, to enjoy a place within the hobby on a lower budget. IMO, only ASKSK 1 offers itself as a learning tool for the full game, having been designed to upgrade and replace the old PAratrooper module as a learning tool for the basic rules set that controls the flow of the game via the main body of rules from Cptrs A and B.

of course, YMMV, but that is where I would put ASLSK4 myself.
 

Evan Sherry

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An introduction to PTO in Starter Kit. An ASL player has to "unlearn" a boatload of rules from standard ASL to play starter kit. It could be done but if their goal is to learn PTO in ASL proper and the players are not already familiar with SK, it would add another layer of complexity to their chore. And then once they learned PTO in SK, they would then have to learn the differences the other way.

My suggestion for a "stepped" introduction would be to play Japanese without PTO first to get a feel for how the Japanese Nationality works, then move on to infantry-only PTO, then add vehicles. My suggestion for the best way to learn PTO is to play Bloody Red Beach over and over again.

And really, what is PTO without a sniper? It's nearly Chutes and Ladders.

JR
JR,
I am bewildered by all of this. I thought SK was supposed to be a starting point. But, now you say that PTO SK is just a way to learn PTO in SK. I'm not sure now if I am even ready for that. Is there a Starter Kit for SK? Are there plans for a programed way to gradually break into the concept of SK? I don't want get in over my head. You know this game is so complicated and expensive, I can hardly believe anyone actually is able to play it. I guess we should have an programed instruction to PTO that does not require so much exertion on the part of the player. I gotta go now. I'm really tired.
 
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Paul M. Weir

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I agree that SKs were initially intended to be a learning tool into ASL. However we are dealing with humans who will make of a SK what they will. Some will try and decide it's not what they like, others will use them as stepping stones to ASL and the rest will stick with SKs as being the thing that hits the spot for them. That many don't want to go further than SKs is fine by me, they clearly get enjoyment from the SKs and help keep MMP afloat which is of long term benefit to ASLers. Those SKers and no further are highly unlikely to go to ASL, so I don't see ASL loosing out except at the very margins.
 

jrv

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JR,
I am bewildered by all of this. I thought SK was supposed to be a starting point. But, now you say that PTO SK is just a way to learn PTO in SK. I'm not sure now if I even ready for that. Is there a Starter Kit for SK? Are there plans for a programed way to gradually break into the concept of SK? I don't want get over my head. You know this game is so complicated and expensive, I can hardly believe anyone actually is able to play it. I guess we should have an programed instruction to PTO that does not require so much exertion on the part of the player. I gotta go now. I'm really tired.
In return I find it somewhat bewildering that you/Sherry Enterprises/the Tampa ASL Group published a scenario pack that was "fully compatible with ASL and ASL Starter Kits 1-3" in October 2007 (Rally Point, Volume 2) with you listed as managing editor, scenario designer and playtester, but only now you are realizing that ASL SK is different from ASL. What does that mean regarding this publication? Is its claim of full compatibility not accurate? Say it ain't so, Joe.

JR
 
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