Subsequent FF Question

waltu

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During the MPh, the DEFENDER has a squad with an LMG. The LMG is marked with FIRST FIRE, the squad is not marked (hasn't fired yet). The ATTACKER moves a unit into LOS, but several hexes away, within normal range of both squad and LMG, and it is the closest KEU. The DEFENDER fires with both squad (normal FP) and LMG (half FP for AREA, sustained fire, B# reduced by 2, etc.). Assume the LMG doesn't break, no cowering occurs. The squad is marked with FIRST FIRE and the LMG is marked FINAL FIRE. So far so good, as this is similar to (but not exactly the same as) the Example on page A20 of the ASLRB about mid-way down, " .... If the LMG (only) were already marked with a FIRST FIRE counter when the 628 was first attacked in W2 ...blah blah blah...".

Now my questions:

Later in the MPh, the ATTACKER moves another unit into LOS, still several hexes away, and it is now the closest KEU. (1) I assume that the squad can use Subsequent FF again since it is marked FIRST FIRE. Is this correct? (2) Or, is there a restriction on the number of times a unit can use SFF? I assume there is no such restriction. (3) Is the LMG, which is now marked with FINAL FIRE, eligible to participate in the second SFF attack? I assume not, because it is marked with FINAL FIRE.

Thanks ahead of time for any help or opinions.
 

buser333

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The very first sentence of A8.3 says "A DEFENDING Infantry unit/(its MG/IFE-weapon) already marked with a First Fire counter may Defensive First Fire again during that MPh as Area Fire by flipping its First Fire counter over to the Final Fire side."
In other words, had the squad only shot its inherent then both weapons would be able to SFF again under the right conditions.
Being that it chose to fire both as SFF then both are now marked with Final Fire.
 

Binchois

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A unit and/or any SWs it possesses may only SFF once. This according to the last sentence of A8.3 (which was added, btw, as an Errata to the 2nd Edition RB):

A8.3...If a unit, or any SW/Gun it possesses, uses Subsequent First Fire (or Intensive Fire) then that unit and all its SW/Guns are marked with a Final Fire counter.​
So once either the lmg or the squad SFFed, they are all marked Final Fire and can only FPF if they are to fire again at all.
 

waltu

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Yes, I see that. However, the squad is originally unmarked, so technically is not using SFF. On the other hand, the squad is using the LMG, and the LMG is marked with FIRST FIRE. So then maybe the squad is using SFF on the first shot. The example I cited on page A20 shows a very similar attack (which does include the FIRST FIRED LMG) and the squad gets marked with FIRST FIRE after the first attack. That example would suggest that the squad in my example would get marked with FIRST FIRE, and not with FINAL FIRE. However, I think most people I know would play it the way your suggesting. So, I'm still confused.
 

Mister T

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... The squad is marked with FIRST FIRE and the LMG is marked FINAL FIRE.
No, this has been modified by a erratum.

If a unit uses SFF (or any SW/Gun it possesses) then that unit (and all its SW/Gun) are marked with a Final Fire counter.


The sentence in page A20 has also been amended.
 

waltu

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A unit and/or any SWs it possesses may only SFF once. This according to the last sentence of A8.3 (which was added, btw, as an Errata to the 2nd Edition RB):

A8.3...If a unit, or any SW/Gun it possesses, uses Subsequent First Fire (or Intensive Fire) then that unit and all its SW/Guns are marked with a Final Fire counter.​
So once either the lmg or the squad SFFed, they are all marked Final Fire and can only FPF if they are to fire again at all.
OK, thanks. I need to find that Errata. I still think this conflicts with the Example on page A20, which is admittedly for FPF not SFF. But the example is very similar to my example, hence my confusion.
 

waltu

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No, this has been modified by a erratum.

If a unit uses SFF (or any SW/Gun it possesses) then that unit (and all its SW/Gun) are marked with a Final Fire counter.

The sentence in page A20 has also been amended.
OK, thank you. More Errata I need to find. I appreciate the help.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Yes, I see that. However, the squad is originally unmarked, so technically is not using SFF. On the other hand, the squad is using the LMG, and the LMG is marked with FIRST FIRE. So then maybe the squad is using SFF on the first shot.
It sort of is - as in it will be marked Final Fire - it's FP, however, is not halved for such an attack. Had it been the other way around - squad marked "First" and LMG unmarked, the LMG would be treated as using Sustained Fire if they fire together.
 

klasmalmstrom

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OK, thank you. More Errata I need to find. I appreciate the help.
From ASL Journal 6:
A8.3: Add at the end “If a unit, or any SW/Gun it possesses, uses Subsequent First Fire (or Intensive Fire) then that unit and all its SW/Guns are marked with a Final Fire counter.”.

A8.41 EX: Second paragraph, lines 23-25 replace “...the 4-6-7 would then be marked with a First Fire counter while the LMG’s First Fire counter would be flipped to its Final Fire side.” with “...the 4-6-7 and LMG would then both be marked with a Final Fire counter.”.
 

Paul John

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Klas, is all the errata collected somewhere? I may use this quiet, home time to finally do that update of my rules.
 

Binchois

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Among other places, you can find them under the "Sticky Errata and other Errata" heading if the Texas ASL download page. Click here to see.

Warning: it's a slow process (but interesting). There's been a lot of them!
 

pwashington

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A few years ago when I got back in to the game I downloaded and posted all of the rules errata available at the time (the Texas site is probably the best one-stop-shopping option). It took about a month of working during free time and occasionally on the weekends. After that, it's been a matter of applying new errata as it gets published. I've tried to do the same for TPP for their scenarios/modules. The folks at the local Staples all know me from my visits to replenish my Avery 5265 sheets.
 

mgmasl

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It sort of is - as in it will be marked Final Fire - it's FP, however, is not halved for such an attack. Had it been the other way around - squad marked "First" and LMG unmarked, the LMG would be treated as using Sustained Fire if they fire together.
In this case, is LMG fired at full FP or halved FP?
 
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