Strong pre-sales may influence pushing back release date?

[Elvis]

Hhmmmmm... admittedly I didn't watch much of the video but what I did see thought it showed a huge improvement with LODs over CMSF. I expect you'll have to wait for release or demo but even the longish shots from my DAR I thought showcased it well. With CMSF if you were on any large-ish map there could be large patches of foliage that would only appear if you zoomed toward that protion of the map. That is not an issue with CMBN.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Hhmmmmm... admittedly I didn't watch much of the video but what I did see thought it showed a huge improvement with LODs over CMSF. I expect you'll have to wait for release or demo but even the longish shots from my DAR I thought showcased it well. With CMSF if you were on any large-ish map there could be large patches of foliage that would only appear if you zoomed toward that protion of the map. That is not an issue with CMBN.

It seemed improved to me as well but I haven't really compared LODs over the course of CMSF's development.

I am not a "down low" player as Redwolf suggests, but then again, I played CMX1 almost exclusively with trees OFF and bases ON so couldn't really care much how fast or far away the trees get drawn back in again. If I want to watch a movie with trees in it, I'll turn on the nature channel.

 

[Quellist]

Oh that Steve, a calm, serene force for soundly promoting his own product, as always.
...
-dale

Well, you have to look at it from Steve's perspective. Here they went RTS to gain broader appeal and presumably the COH player base is a fair percentage of the potential customers that BFC were salivating over when they made the decision.
Then, when the COHers show up, they tell Steve his game look like crap. Priceless :laugh:

 

[Tanker]

That's just the kind of thing Hitler would say.

-dale

Huh????

 

[Geordie]

Well, you have to look at it from Steve's perspective. Here they went RTS to gain broader appeal and presumably the COH player base is a fair percentage of the potential customers that BFC were salivating over when they made the decision.
Then, when the COHers show up, they tell Steve his game look like crap. Priceless :laugh:

And yet I find they are both right. COH does have better graphics but it does have a bigger budget. I find the vehicles in CMSF OK but the humans are pretty poor rubber soldier men. I think BF have tried with animations and stuff but one man can only do so much. So soldiers still run around in gaggles banging into each others behinds, jump walls after they've run through them, shoot at targets I cant see.

There are limits to what BF can do with their limited resources and I think we have to accept that, as long as they accept it too. I dont want them to say its the nest simulation ever and I wont call their graphics crappy.

I fail to see why anyone criticising a games outdated graphics (and they are) has any bearing on how that individual does his job. I mean, Steve hasnt seen this guys work, but, we have seen his!

 

[Quellist]

And yet I find they are both right. COH does have better graphics but it does have a bigger budget. I find the vehicles in CMSF OK but the humans are pretty poor rubber soldier men. I think BF have tried with animations and stuff but one man can only do so much. So soldiers still run around in gaggles banging into each others behinds, jump walls after they've run through them, shoot at targets I cant see.

There are limits to what BF can do with their limited resources and I think we have to accept that, as long as they accept it too. I dont want them to say its the nest simulation ever and I wont call their graphics crappy.

I fail to see why anyone criticising a games outdated graphics (and they are) has any bearing on how that individual does his job. I mean, Steve hasnt seen this guys work, but, we have seen his!

Yeah, but it should have been obvious from the get go (i.e. when they started working on the CM2 engine) that they couldn't compete in graphics/movement quality in the 1-1 RTS engine space so at the very least they should have been prepared with some good, well thought out, responses to the players that they are trying to lure over.

I've got nothing against the graphics per se, although it is my belief that it was a bad move, simply because it is too expensive with their limited resources and the results (graphics wise) would always be, at best, mediocre compared to AAA titles. They added engine complexity will probably continue to haunt them as well.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

...added engine complexity will probably continue to haunt them as well.

If by "haunt" you mean to say "frustrate", I think we've clearly seen evidence of it again in Steve's hostile reaction.

But I wouldn't make too much of it. The game will either sell itself, or it won't. The AAR, the demo, even this video, are all just more ways of helping it do that. The danger is in providing too much information - of the wrong kind - and dissuading potential players from sitting down and forming a favourable opinion for themselves. Sometimes too much information is a bad thing.

I don't want to get into a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation. I stated that the marketing was well done up until a week ago. The AARs, the preorder, the preview/interview were all well managed this time around. Like our Conservative party during election week, BFC seems to be falling apart a little in the last few days before the big day - but it will probably not matter much in the end.

 

[dalem]

Hhmmmmm... admittedly I didn't watch much of the video

So you didn't watch it all? I can't believe you're making statements about it.

chorus
He didn't watch it all
No he didn't do it
He didn't watch it all
Makes me throw a fit
He didn't watch it all
Now I'll act the ghit

He didn't watch it all!

-dale

 

[dalem]

Huh????

Me make joke. I just skipped ahead to the internet capper of Godwin.

-dale

 

[dalem]

Well, you have to look at it from Steve's perspective.

I can't get my head that far up my arse.

-dale

 

[Redwolf]

And yet I find they are both right. COH does have better graphics but it does have a bigger budget.

A CM like game doesn't have a chance just because of ranges. A battle with realistic combat ranges will always look bad from a top view. To see some "action" you need to have compressed ranges.

CMx1 did pretty well because it did have unit size scaling which came out looking pretty natural and good if you picked the right scale.

I find the vehicles in CMSF OK but the humans are pretty poor rubber soldier men. I think BF have tried with animations and stuff but one man can only do so much. So soldiers still run around in gaggles banging into each others behinds, jump walls after they've run through them, shoot at targets I cant see.

There are limits to what BF can do with their limited resources and I think we have to accept that, as long as they accept it too. I dont want them to say its the nest simulation ever and I wont call their graphics crappy.

I fail to see why anyone criticising a games outdated graphics (and they are) has any bearing on how that individual does his job. I mean, Steve hasnt seen this guys work, but, we have seen his!

The problem in CMx2 isn't outdated graphics. It is that the looks from a high view are not designed at all. They are the random outcome of what the low level modeling does. Which just doesn't come out pretty.

Having said that, I can't image that Charles is happy with the level of sophistication he could out into LOD (level of detail) so far. It's not up to the standards of the rest of the game. But then LOD messes don't impact gameplay and he probably has to fix a million things that do.

 

[carl_render]

There is a new VAAR up - this time a QB. Sticking with the graphics theme, the map contains a decidedly odd looking river.

 

[vulture]

There is a new VAAR up - this time a QB. Sticking with the graphics theme, the map contains a decidedly odd looking river.

Someone else mentioned on the BFC forums that the water table level was still screwy in that build, but has been fixed since then, so the admittedly strange river should be much improved in the release.

I certainly hope so, because the river and its strange LoD behaviour was something of a let down, although it looked fine up close.

One nice feature that cropped up in this video was that in QBs, the defender sets up first and the attacker gets some intel on the defence setup (which the AI used quite well in this battle). Presumably it is the same as CM:SF pre-battle intel in that it is set by the map designer / scenario parameters and gives you some info on the position of a fraction of enemy units; the attacker starting the game will see '?' markers on e.g. 30% of defender positions (could be anything from 0% to 100% in 10% increments in CMSF IIRC).

 

[Quellist]

If by "haunt" you mean to say "frustrate", I think we've clearly seen evidence of it again in Steve's hostile reaction.

But I wouldn't make too much of it. The game will either sell itself, or it won't. The AAR, the demo, even this video, are all just more ways of helping it do that. The danger is in providing too much information - of the wrong kind - and dissuading potential players from sitting down and forming a favourable opinion for themselves. Sometimes too much information is a bad thing.

I don't want to get into a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation. I stated that the marketing was well done up until a week ago. The AARs, the preorder, the preview/interview were all well managed this time around. Like our Conservative party during election week, BFC seems to be falling apart a little in the last few days before the big day - but it will probably not matter much in the end.

I'm looking at the slightly longer perspective, thus that which is frustrating today, is sleep haunting the day after tomorrow .

I actually think that BN will do ok, a fair share of those who got burnt on SF seems to be able to ignore lessons learnt (if this forum is anything to go by), BFC's big return to WW2 will probably draw a lot of those who jumped over CMSF and a RTS fan or two might take the plunge. But then what, I believe that a fair percentage will feel that it's neither fish nor fowl and start to bleed off and I think that BFC will hard pressed to break out of that downward spiral with with the engine decisions weighing them down.

But then again, I could be wrong and BN could be the smash hit that makes them financially independent.

 

[dalem]

I've said this before, but a smart play for BFC would be to have CMN and its next module BOTH ready before they release the former. Then they could have a quick and timely one-two punch ready. Maybe that's why they have a 2 year delay.

-dale

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Someone else mentioned on the BFC forums that the water table level was still screwy in that build, but has been fixed since then, so the admittedly strange river should be much improved in the release.

This is the part I'm not understanding. Their pre-release buzz was so positive - they're just getting greedy now. And showing stuff that people shouldn't be seeing. Or, maybe, they should. I'm not suggesting hiding flaws - I guess I'm asking, why are there still flaws this close to release?

Actually, maybe I am suggesting they should have hidden those flaws until after release. Like I said earlier this morning...you keep pecking away with little bits of fiddly information before people can see it for themselves - truly see it - and you're just dooming yourself. People will still want to sit down with it, but they will be going into it with a much changed attitude - instead of being open minded, they'll be looking for the goofy stuff they read about before hand, to see how bad it is, instead of just seeing whether or not they like the game for its own merits.

 

[Elvis]

So you didn't watch it all? I can't believe you're making statements about it.

chorus
He didn't watch it all
No he didn't do it
He didn't watch it all
Makes me throw a fit
He didn't watch it all
Now I'll act the ghit

He didn't watch it all!

-dale

I saw enough to speak about the point I commented on (hell, a screen shot would have been enough). I have not spoken to points that others have made because I didn't watch the whole thing and it would only be talking out of my ass if I did. So I didn't.

 

[carl_render]

Elvis
Can you confirm MikeyD's statement that the river graphic is now fixed?

Cheers

 

[Jeph]

The video he did, personally, of the one sided game with one force being massacred was ludicrous for a number of reasons. Not everyone shares the same sense of humour where that goes, but I think most would look at some of the more professional video previews that BFC did put together for CMSF and hold them up next to that AAR and at the very least see a difference in terms of quality.

Yes the video was crap. But I've mostly only seen you complain about his funny accent.

Tyrspawn's video had a bit of a "third party review" vibe about it, where it is so close to release date that BFC have let their dfenses down. It was not official BFC production, yet was obviously approved and promoted by them. That is BFCs failing not tyrspawns.

And yes I agree Moon makes some baffling marketing moves. I'm certainly no fan of his, sometimes he does things superbly, sometimes he comes up with something so amatuerish you wonder how he ever got the job.

But again its easy to sit in front of the computer and be a knocker. Nice to see that vid you produced, putting yourself "out there" takes some guts.

 

[Elvis]

Elvis
Can you confirm MikeyD's statement that the river graphic is now fixed?

Cheers

I haven't looked at the new video so I'm not sure. There have been very recent changes. And, say what you want about MikeyD, he is a fanatic about the graphics and has a fantastic eye for things. If he said the ones in the video don't match the current build you can pretty well believe him.