Strong pre-sales may influence pushing back release date?

Mad Russian

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2005
Messages
1,372
Reaction score
188
Location
texas
Country
llUnited States
Looks like the AI is just as inept on offense as it is in CMx1.
Not that it's a dealbreaker for me as i don't plan on playing much single player.
In the vid a German squad surrendered to an American bailed out tank crew. WOW!

Remember all those discussions about what to do with bailed tank crews? Seems like BFC has given us the solution ATTACK with them!

Good Hunting.

MR
 

wengart

Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
238
Reaction score
3
Location
Knossos
Country
ll
I'd like to point out that situation was rather odd. The squad, in knocking out a Sherman at very close range managed to suppress itself and kill one of their own men. This combined with a crew bailing nearly on top of them and another one appearing in the woods seconds afterwards doomed them.
 

Elvis

Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
2,918
Reaction score
14
Location
Pennsylvania
Country
llUnited States
I'd like to point out that situation was rather odd. The squad, in knocking out a Sherman at very close range managed to suppress itself and kill one of their own men. This combined with a crew bailing nearly on top of them and another one appearing in the woods seconds afterwards doomed them.
wengart, don't let the facts get in the way of a good misrepresentation.
 

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,575
Reaction score
2,485
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
Also now a picture of an intact bridge and a 90 minute video AAR by Tyrspawn (who did a load of CMSF ones) - basically a video of him playing a whole mission real time if its anything like his previous efforts (just downloading it now)

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=95908
The first ten minutes was the best look yet at what the game really looks like - but an hour and 38 minutes is ridiculously long and I lost interest after that. Dude seriously needs to go to film school and learn how to edit. He could have stitched together a few key sequences, thrown in some fades (and I believe the video editor that ships standard with Windows does that all reliably now) and had a nice tight preview.

Still, much better than the kill sack one which still gets me into hysterics.

I mean, it was neat to see the load-up screens - they're professional looking - but I expect to be seeing a lot of them once the game ships, so I didn't need to sit through 65 seconds of it in a video, or whatever the actual time was.
 

carl_render

Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2011
Messages
43
Reaction score
0
Location
Reading UK
Country
ll
I only looked at a bit of the video but the graphics worry me. IMO the LOD does not look much better than CMSF - trees and terrain 'shift' and there is a stark divide between near and distant road graphic. None of this effects gameply but I was hoping for much slicker graphics in CMBN. Glad I did not pre-order.
 

Jeph

Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
188
Reaction score
4
Location
Oz
Country
llAustralia
Dude seriously needs to go to film school and learn how to edit. He could have stitched together a few key sequences, thrown in some fades (and I believe the video editor that ships standard with Windows does that all reliably now) and had a nice tight preview.
It is what it is Mr DeMille. Or is your expertise in computer game marketing, I forget.

Looks like the AI is just as inept on offense as it is in CMx1.
Not that it's a dealbreaker for me as i don't plan on playing much single player.
There were a few surprises in there that the CMx1 AI wouldn't have managed, like agressively flanking. CMSF has a timed scripted AI which can surprise you with its agressiveness sometimes (just like a human player can) but that just means it is programmed to rush you in certain places.

But yes, the AI in the video looked a little retarded, however I think its worth noting that the CMx2 AI is retarded in vastly different ways to CMx1.
 

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,575
Reaction score
2,485
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
CMSF has a timed scripted AI which can surprise you with its agressiveness sometimes (just like a human player can)
A human player can "surprise you with aggressiveness". A timed script AI can only surprise you by coincidentally running its forces someplace by accident. It's not aggression, it's circumstance.
 

Jeph

Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
188
Reaction score
4
Location
Oz
Country
llAustralia
A human player can "surprise you with aggressiveness". A timed script AI can only surprise you by coincidentally running its forces someplace by accident. It's not aggression, it's circumstance.
I appreciate that you may be making a rhetorical point, but no you're wrong.

A timed scripted AI can "know" within a certain degree of error that a player will have their forces here or there at minute X. Sure if you game the game you could trick a timed AI but which AI plan did you draw?? The scenario author can rush a force into an advantageous position just like a human player can. The player can be aggresive and prevent this gambit or find a nasty surprise there when their forces arrive.

I'm surprised that you, a man who has his scenario authoring work on the CMSF disc would be ignorant of this.

CMx1 AI was predictable, though the TacAI/StratAI combo did some amazing things with tanks, you know if there is a woods with a flag behind it, old Mr Plod will send his units there.
 
Last edited:

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,575
Reaction score
2,485
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
I appreciate that you may be making a rhetorical point
I was making a statement of fact.

A timed scripted AI can "know" within a certain degree of error that a player will have their forces here or there at minute X.
If the AI knows where your forces are without spotting them the AI is actually cheating to achieve its results. That's poor form. And it's not "AI" at all. Incidentally, BFC stated explicitly that in the previous game engine, the Tac AI did not cheat in order to get its results (i.e. artillery observers had no knowledge of enemy troop locations when they fired missions, etc. - there was some doubt about that, but I take them at their word.)

I'm surprised that you, a man who has his scenario authoring work on the CMSF disc would be ignorant of this.
You keep trying very hard to make this personal and get an emotional reaction from me.

Is there a reason?
 

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,575
Reaction score
2,485
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
It is what it is Mr DeMille. Or is your expertise in computer game marketing, I forget.
I may as well respond to this, though it won't be the emotional response you are craving. I'll just point out that if an Academy Award in directing was a prerequisite for making internet videos, its unlikely that Microsoft would be bundling their video-making software and providing it for free with their operating system.

It doesn't take any special expertise in marketing to compare Moon's "My Sack Lacks the Power to be Killing" effort to some of the more professional efforts released by the larger corporate software publishers and know which is more likely to make someone want to buy a game. We're all just sharing opinions here; above happens to be mine. "It is what it is."
 

vulture

Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2010
Messages
192
Reaction score
4
Location
Ossett
Country
ll
A timed scripted AI can "know" within a certain degree of error that a player will have their forces here or there at minute X. Sure if you game the game you could trick a timed AI but which AI plan did you draw?? The scenario author can rush a force into an advantageous position just like a human player can. The player can be aggresive and prevent this gambit or find a nasty surprise there when their forces arrive.
The timed AI script 'knows' nothing at all. All it is doing is reacting to what the scenario designer esimated the human player would (or might) be doing. But it will do what is in its selected script absolutely without regard to what the tactical situation in front of it is. If the players actions happen to match up to the fictional behaviour the AI script is fighting against, then all well and good, and the illusion of AI competence can be pretty good. If there is a serious mismatch, then you get fun events like AI defenders rushing out of their positions and getting slaughtered by the overwatch you just finished setting up, as they counterattack an attack that hasn't launched yet.

In short, I'm entirely with MD on this one. Maybe it is purely semantics (since we all know what the AI actually can and can't do I suspect), but once the battle has started, the AI is not respondingly strategically to the situation in the slightest, except by chance (or the the designer has been cunning in the scenario design).
 

Geordie

CM Moderator
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
2,111
Reaction score
13
Location
Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I may as well respond to this, though it won't be the emotional response you are craving. I'll just point out that if an Academy Award in directing was a prerequisite for making internet videos, its unlikely that Microsoft would be bundling their video-making software and providing it for free with their operating system.

It doesn't take any special expertise in marketing to compare Moon's "My Sack Lacks the Power to be Killing" effort to some of the more professional efforts released by the larger corporate software publishers and know which is more likely to make someone want to buy a game. We're all just sharing opinions here; above happens to be mine. "It is what it is."
Or you could always do what I did and use the fast forwards button.

For whatever record there is, I wasnt overly impressed with the video either, not because of length, more of content and what at times he seemed to be trying to achieve. At one point he kept running an AT team 5 feet back and forth around a building to attempt to kill a tank! Very click-fest RT that was. In real life or H2H the guy in the tank would have blown them away....

Also, though I noted the trees seemed to stay on the map despite the draw distance, close up terrain still draws at a pretty poor distance.

However, it does have promise and some of the newer features are very welcome, I actually am looking forward to getting the thing on Friday?

1st Mod is getting rid of those awful green weapons though. I have no idea why BF persist with them.
 

dalem

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
2,298
Reaction score
62
Location
Columbia Heights, MN
Country
llUnited States
A timed scripted AI can "know" within a certain degree of error that a player will have their forces here or there at minute X.
Incorrect. A script doesn't "know" anything, not even in quotes. It reacts to a limited set of programmed stimuli - blindly, automatically, and without consideration of influencing factors. A script complex enough to obviate those listed factors is no longer a script, but an AI. It is the worst and laziest type of opponent.

-dale
 

BlitzCanuck

Pretend Command Sgt. Maj.
Joined
Aug 19, 2006
Messages
228
Reaction score
5
Location
Great White North
Country
llCanada
I only looked at a bit of the video but the graphics worry me. IMO the LOD does not look much better than CMSF - trees and terrain 'shift' and there is a stark divide between near and distant road graphic. None of this effects gameply but I was hoping for much slicker graphics in CMBN. Glad I did not pre-order.
I have to admit that i was not impressed with the graphics either. Watching the video i couldn't help but think that, in all the time i've waited for this game, the improvement in the graphics would be substantially more dramatic.
On a positive note, other than that, i liked what i saw.
 

Redwolf

Member # 3665
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
5,113
Reaction score
44
Location
MA, USA
Country
llUnited States
The game probably only looks good (for real good) when you go down to a detail level.

CMx2 has never been able to even match CMx1 when viewing from a high angle, mainly because of the naive LOD handling.
 

Tanker

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2004
Messages
702
Reaction score
4
Location
New Hampshire
Country
llUnited States
60$? Is it because of the steel case?
No, it's because they can. In some cases that is.

It is interesting that Shogun 2, which is a polished game, is selling for $49.99 and IL2-Cliffs of Dover, which is very unpolished at the moment, is also selling for $49.99. Both games are new and in niche markets, much like CMN. I wonder why BF thinks CMN is worth the premium? It may be the steel box after all.
 
Top