Streets of Stalingrad 4th Edition in Production.

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Proff3RTR

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What I find disturbing, is yet again a simple, normal post has been turned into a bashing session.
I for one love the ww2 based era correct symbols used on all 3 versions of SoS so far, I hope that SoS4 keeps to that, as it adds historical flavour, nothing more, nothing less, no need for folks to get all hissy fit about it etc. Sometimes I despair with this forum and some of the attitudes shown.

If SoS4 is in Production or not we will see in roughly a year, if it is not, no worries, I will have to bite the bullet and fork out for a copy of SoS3, if it is out next year though, awesome, I can get that, I still feel the info I have been given is good, my choice so no harm done to anyone.

Now let's see what happens next eh, or what troll rears his head.

Perry
 

tunixx

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What I find disturbing, is yet again a simple, normal post has been turned into a bashing session.
I for one love the ww2 based era correct symbols used on all 3 versions of SoS so far, I hope that SoS4 keeps to that, as it adds historical flavour, nothing more, nothing less, no need for folks to get all hissy fit about it etc. Sometimes I despair with this forum and some of the attitudes shown.

If SoS4 is in Production or not we will see in roughly a year, if it is not, no worries, I will have to bite the bullet and fork out for a copy of SoS3, if it is out next year though, awesome, I can get that, I still feel the info I have been given is good, my choice so no harm done to anyone.

Now let's see what happens next eh, or what troll rears his head.

Perry
I had similar thoughts about this thread.

While I respect any decisions made by the designers, I think using historical instead of standardized symbols is a poor choice. Every attempt should be made to reduce complexity because 30-40 pages of rules are a barrier that is already high enough. The easier the access to this game is, the more players it will attract. I can understand that nostalgic feelings get in the way of changing the artwork, but better is the enemy of good.

I remember playing CH's Berlin module with the counters that came with the module. As Berlin based ASL players the motivation to play it was very hight. However, the combination of badly written rules and altered (for reasons of copyright) counter artwork led to total frustration. After playing 1 scenario we never touched this module again.
 

Proff3RTR

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I had similar thoughts about this thread.

While I respect any decisions made by the designers, I think using historical instead of standardized symbols is a poor choice. Every attempt should be made to reduce complexity because 30-40 pages of rules are a barrier that is already high enough. The easier the access to this game is, the more players it will attract. I can understand that nostalgic feelings get in the way of changing the artwork, but better is the enemy of good.

I remember playing CH's Berlin module with the counters that came with the module. As Berlin based ASL players the motivation to play it was very hight. However, the combination of badly written rules and altered (for reasons of copyright) counter artwork led to total frustration. After playing 1 scenario we never touched this module again.
SoS 3rd Edition had maybe 25 pages of rules IIRC, the game is not complicated, nor are the symbols, they add to the game. If you. An understand ASL then SoS will be a breeze.
 

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Nice try switching this back to ASL to support your own ideas but this discussion is about NEW GAMES published in 2016. If a game company today cannot take a few minutes to generate new counter art and decides to give you (tired old) NATO symbols, how innovative do you think they were with the game mechanics? again, played one S&T game, played them all. If ASL 3.0 was published in 2016 using 1977 graphics that would be a joke and would let you know that you don't need to pick it up as it is no better than the original. Just ask your buddy ZenRiver. And since you bring it up, ASL is like Sophia Loren - elegant and still looks good for her age - but another face lift might attract a younger crowd. TPPs are adding new things all the time to ASL - to your chagrin I might add. Embrace change, forget your wargame Stalinist myopia, and feel the Bern :D
Look, your arguments simply don't work. NATO graphics are a wargaming convention, just like putting attack factors in the lower left are a wargaming convention. They are a shared method of communicating concepts to people in an effect manner--just like blueprints have similarly shared conventions. Or do you think that no building is innovative because they use the same blueprint conventions that people did 50 years ago? Highly innovative games like GMT's Eagle and the Sun use NATO symbols. Why? Because they work better than other methods because everybody is already familiar with them and the wheel does not have to be constantly reinvented. Even those few companies that eschew NATO graphics for their games, like Vae Victis, have substituted their own longstanding graphic conventions in lieu of NATO graphics, rather than reinventing the wheel every time.
 

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Look, your arguments simply don't work. NATO graphics are a wargaming convention, just like putting attack factors in the lower left are a wargaming convention. They are a shared method of communicating concepts to people in an effect manner--just like blueprints have similarly shared conventions. Or do you think that no building is innovative because they use the same blueprint conventions that people did 50 years ago? Highly innovative games like GMT's Eagle and the Sun use NATO symbols. Why? Because they work better than other methods because everybody is already familiar with them and the wheel does not have to be constantly reinvented. Even those few companies that eschew NATO graphics for their games, like Vae Victis, have substituted their own longstanding graphic conventions in lieu of NATO graphics, rather than reinventing the wheel every time.
Mark - your arguing counter symbols and I'm arguing counter artwork. I don't want symbols, I'd prefer counter art in this day and age if I'm shelling out $200+ for a game (or even $75). would you play ASL if the infantry counters had a picture of a box with an X in it? Same game but to me less visually immersive plus counter art quickly tells you the resource type. I can play the game either way but my OPINION is that in any new game I'd prefer counters to be more "snazzy" than the bag they came in.
 

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Come and see!

2nd offer to Pitman (1st was via PM)

Your only 2 hours away. Come on up and I will buy lunch! You will need to sign a NDA and you can see how far we are along. In addition, you can view my Stalingrad collection and museum. I have the only surviving sixth Army map from the street and factory fighting period of the battle. :yummy:

View attachment 53085 View attachment 53086 View attachment 53087 View attachment 53088 View attachment 53089
Yes, that is the Grain Elevator in 1/285 scale sitting on the flat file holder. Rent the 2011 movie remake of “Straw Dogs” and you can see more of my collection in the background. :nuts:

Production YES! :thumup: Printers NO! :nada:
 
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xenovin

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Re: Come and see!

Hey Russ - very nice collection! FYI - there's a big ASL tournament every October in Cleveland (100+ guys) and probably everyone one of them has fought in Stalingrad at some point. I'm sure a few of them would like to visit. Don't know if Tom Morin (aka Mr. Stalingrad) will be there but sure you two would have something to chat about.
 

Paul M. Weir

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Ok, this is getting a little too heated over a game.

I might as well give my opinions over counter art. I will use the term metadata to describe the combination/arrangement of alphanumerics, colour (including bars or patches), layout, positioning and symbols that are on a counter (data being the actual colours, symbols and alphanumeric values for a particular counter) for this post (the term metadata has a somewhat fluid usage).

I started with some early AH (PB, PL, etc) and many SPI games (both boxed/bagged and magazine games). This meant that for all except the lowest level tactical games (EG AH's PB or SPI's Kampfpanzer), NATO style was the norm. The first game that used a non NATO but equivalent system was FGA's Operation Crusader, which used German symbol symbols. While that game had multiple inadequacies, learning a new set of symbols was not a major thing. I had problems with SoS v1 but that was mainly the size of the game when you wanted the big picture, the different Soviet and German symbols was only a minor thing that mitigated the more I played.

The games I play other than very infrequently are ASL, GMT's GBoH, L'n'L's WaW, AP's GWAS and AP's PG, roughly in order of frequency. Their counter metadata are all very different, yet I have little problem transitioning between them. For the less frequently played games I often have to refresh my metadata memory, but that is usually a fraction of my rules rereading. If I were to dig out my SoS v1 (or finally use my SoS v3), I would have to spend 95% of pre-game time relearning the rules, so the type symbols would be trivial in comparison.

There are a reasonably common conventions like the Attack-Defense-Movement factor triplet and the NATO symbols, but there is a great multitude of games that don't conform to either, like my above list of games/game systems. So the use of Soviet and German type unit symbols rather than NATO, while somewhat unusual, in principle is no different than those which use tank and figure drawings.
 

Russ Schulke

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Re: Come and see!

Big thanks, 20+ PM’s and emails in the last 6 hours about coming up in October. I see no problem with that.

I can give two one–hour presentations; the first would be my Stalingrad collection with a small battle related talk and the second for SOS4. For the SOS4 presentation, each attendee will have to sign a NDA (Non- Disclosure Agreement) at the door.

http://members.boardhost.com/stalingrad/msg/1425819070.html

I only need four things:
1.) A small room/hall to give the presentation in. (I guessing for 20+ people.)
2.) A large screen TV with HDMI connection. (I will bring my own cable.)
3.) Four 8 ft. long tables
4.) One person to help me carry it all in. (It will only take one trip.)

You people can set the date and time.

Here is the dirty little secret: I have known about the hardcore NATO symbols guys for 25+ years. Therefore, in the fall of 2014 when I gave my first presentation to the SOS rights owners (DL/DP) I insisted the new counters must have quick text reference. They agreed, all counters have them and here are a few!

View attachment 53092

Russ
 
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Rock SgtDan

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Re: Come and see!

Nice to have the reference text.

Another help would be to have both the WWII and current NATO symbols side by side in the rules. That would help the NATO people become bi-symbolical. Maybe even an online quick reference card they could print.

If the countersheets are being done with the symbols on one "layer" you might not have too much work to create an alternative NATO symbol countersheet set. Make sure it can be die cut using the dies owned by the SPI Wrecking Yard guy. People could buy the uncut sheets, which you could print on demand, then they could pay to have him die cut them or cut themselves by hand.
 

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Re: Come and see!

2nd offer to Pitman (1st was via PM)

Your only 2 hours away. Come on up and I will buy lunch! You will need to sign a NDA and you can see how far we are along. In addition, you can view my Stalingrad collection and museum. I have the only surviving sixth Army map from the street and factory fighting period of the battle. :yummy:

View attachment 53085 View attachment 53086 View attachment 53087 View attachment 53088 View attachment 53089
Yes, that is the Grain Elevator in 1/285 scale sitting on the flat file holder. Rent the 2011 movie remake of “Straw Dogs” and you can see more of my collection in the background. :nuts:

Production YES! :thumup: Printers NO! :nada:
I already told you that I would not do something so silly as to sign a non-disclosure agreement. And something "in production" means that it is in the physical process of being produced.
 

Pitman

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Ok, this is getting a little too heated over a game.

I might as well give my opinions over counter art. I will use the term metadata to describe the combination/arrangement of alphanumerics, colour (including bars or patches), layout, positioning and symbols that are on a counter (data being the actual colours, symbols and alphanumeric values for a particular counter) for this post (the term metadata has a somewhat fluid usage).

I started with some early AH (PB, PL, etc) and many SPI games (both boxed/bagged and magazine games). This meant that for all except the lowest level tactical games (EG AH's PB or SPI's Kampfpanzer), NATO style was the norm. The first game that used a non NATO but equivalent system was FGA's Operation Crusader, which used German symbol symbols. While that game had multiple inadequacies, learning a new set of symbols was not a major thing. I had problems with SoS v1 but that was mainly the size of the game when you wanted the big picture, the different Soviet and German symbols was only a minor thing that mitigated the more I played.

The games I play other than very infrequently are ASL, GMT's GBoH, L'n'L's WaW, AP's GWAS and AP's PG, roughly in order of frequency. Their counter metadata are all very different, yet I have little problem transitioning between them. For the less frequently played games I often have to refresh my metadata memory, but that is usually a fraction of my rules rereading. If I were to dig out my SoS v1 (or finally use my SoS v3), I would have to spend 95% of pre-game time relearning the rules, so the type symbols would be trivial in comparison.

There are a reasonably common conventions like the Attack-Defense-Movement factor triplet and the NATO symbols, but there is a great multitude of games that don't conform to either, like my above list of games/game systems. So the use of Soviet and German type unit symbols rather than NATO, while somewhat unusual, in principle is no different than those which use tank and figure drawings.
No, the first nontactical game, so far as I know, was AH's The Longest Day. And the symbols were a ******* pain in the ass.
 

Proff3RTR

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No, the first nontactical game, so far as I know, was AH's The Longest Day. And the symbols were a ******* pain in the ass.
used to own that, I liked it, added depth and flavour, Having used NATO symbols for a living (Recce Troop, 3 RTR & 2 RTR) I still prefer period markings for WW2 games, not everyones cup of Joe, but there you go.
 

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Even simpler: if you don't like it, try to get it changed.
Mark,
I am not trying to start a flame war or any such, but how is changing something simpler that simply not buying it? straight away it involves effort as the item is clearly important enough to the person that they want it, but it in thier opinion needs some changes, these he or she will have to badger someone to effect, and maybe that effort may or in all reality will be in vain. So the notion that changing something is simpler than not buying it is IMHO not quite right, as it would not be a simpler task.
Now to say if you desire it that much you need to put in the effort to try to effect that change (even though it is a WW2 era game using period unit symbols as opposed to Generic NATO symbols) then I would agree 100%, for my 2 pence, the symbols work just fine, easy to get the head around and so no need to go to NATO symbols, as I feel this will destroy the look of the game (well it will for me anyhow).
But as said, no intention of starting a flame war, but I have my fire blanket ready just in case:devious:
 

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I think you missed the crux of my point, which is that "accept it or don't buy it" is a false presentation of the options at hand and no one should ever say that to someone, least of all to me, as the only thing it would accomplish is to get my hackles up.
 

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The designer has now posted pictures of the 4th edition map over on BGG. You've got to see the quality. The whole map is going to be 5' x 8.5' which may put a few people off. Not me though, this is a monster game now with a monster map.

Just need to know when i can place my order!
 

Proff3RTR

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The designer has now posted pictures of the 4th edition map over on BGG. You've got to see the quality. The whole map is going to be 5' x 8.5' which may put a few people off. Not me though, this is a monster game now with a monster map.

Just need to know when i can place my order!
As soon as Russ sorts out the crowdfunding (he told me I have at least 6 months to stash some cash for it:laugh:) so I am very very happy to see this moving on at a goodly pace.
 
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